WatchUSeek Watch Forums banner
1 - 20 of 42 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,686 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Hello comrades, i want to show you a slava 28чк wristwatch that i purchased yesterday at a watch & clock fair. Supposedly came from a navy warehouse but i take that story with a pinch of salt. The kapitanski in wristwatch case is quite an odd design and its seems to be a rare variant with unknown origin. Icing on the cake is the box and papers that it came with. The papers seem to be correct for a kapitanski. If you have one too or the Molnija wristwatch version don't hesitate to post too, the more the merrier. Enough talk, lets see some pictures!!


Certificate and box.


Notice the navy stamp on the certificate. Serial doesn't match but the production year does.


Almost too big to fit inside.


Great photo of watch and paper.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,350 Posts
Hmmmm, my congrats, but there is one problem - it's not genuine, it's just marriage (converted, recased - old movement in new case), probably from Kharkov, Ukrain. The attestate says "for pocket watch with second meter - 28ChK". 28ChK was only pocket. It's common known marriage warint of this chronograph.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,686 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
Thanks Oldfox, i know there is no solid proof its factory made but that just adds to the mystery of the watch. What we do know is that this recase already existed in 1998 due to photo in Uhrenmagazin. I dont mind it being a 18 year old recase as its such an unusual watch. But how do you explain the molnija 3017 pocket chrono that can also be found in a wristwatch case.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,148 Posts
Truly beautiful piece. I think there are too few of these 'marriages' floating around to be modern fakes. If I were a frankenmaster, I'd devote my time on cheaper watches that are much more likely to sell in numbers than one rare 3017 that would likely take some time to sell at a high price. But who knows.

A few others have posted their Molnija 3017 conversions here on WUS. It'd be interesting to compare them all for a case study.

The navy stamp is superb!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,350 Posts
Thanks Oldfox, i know there is no solid proof its factory made but that just adds to the mystery of the watch. What we do know is that this recase already existed in 1998 due to photo in Uhrenmagazin. I dont mind it being a 18 year old recase as its such an unusual watch. But how do you explain the molnija 3017 pocket chrono that can also be found in a wristwatch case.
There is no mystery at all, it's late marriage. The only attribution at this "article" is the date on movement, which can say nothing about the case. Factory catalogues of 2ChZ don't know such wrist watch, it was never produced. Additional pro to marriage, is that in 1950-th all cases at 2ChZ were brass with chrom plating. And the dial is for pocket variant - 12 is at the crown, for wrist variant factory could make a normal wrist dial - with winding crown on 9 hours.

3017 caliber was first produced at 1ChZ as wrist one, and only THEN produced at 2ChZ and Chelyabinsk factory in pocket format, both variants are present in catalogues. And again, both wrist and pocket versions were brass + chrom plating.

Regarding the article - as I said, this variant of marriage is well known and widespreaded, so no wonder that it was done 18 years ago. Additional evidence for fake is that winding crown on watch from article is from late 70-th molnijas (this one was made for Olimpic Games 1980) when molnijas were produced only at Chelyabinsk factory:
Keychain Locket Fashion accessory Pocket watch Copper


So if numbers on movement and documents matchs, that says only one - in Ukrain was found NOS watch (my love to mroatman) with box and papers and converted to wrist in order to sell it to some credulous guy. Sad but true.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,350 Posts
Truly beautiful piece. I think there are too few of these 'marriages' floating around to be modern fakes. If I were a frankenmaster, I'd devote my time on cheaper watches that are much more likely to sell in numbers than one rare 3017 that would likely take some time to sell at a high price. But who knows.

A few others have posted their Molnija 3017 conversions here on WUS. It'd be interesting to compare them all for a case study.

The navy stamp is superb!
Now in Ukrain, if you are resident, you can buy such watch for 30-40 $, then 30 $ for case from china, 5-10 $ to watchmaster for conversion. And sell it for 350-400 $. Better margin than from cocaine trading and even legal.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,353 Posts
I recall to have expressed more or less the very same doubts in this old thread.

I only wonder where does the information about where these marriages could have been produced come from, and if the mention of Kharkov is due to some very specific evidence, or is it just an educated guess (why not Moscow, for instance?).

I have to ask it because in the past we've already seen the trend to locate frankenmasters always "across the border", while the Net shows that there's plenty of them everywhere...
 

·
Mod. Russian, China Mech.
Joined
·
19,631 Posts
Now in Ukrain, if you are resident, you can buy such watch for 30-40 $, then 30 $ for case from china, 5-10 $ to watchmaster for conversion. And sell it for 350-400 $. Better margin than from cocaine trading and even legal.
That is a very distinctive case. What do you suppose it was originally designed for if not for a ChK-28?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,350 Posts
That is a very distinctive case. What do you suppose it was originally designed for if not for a ChK-28?
It's not a problem to order cases in China according to your spec's. Precisely fitting cases for thin or thick molnija, that are produced in China, are sold in Ukraine for $30 and it match 3601/3602 perfectly. It's not a reason to say that that cases are made at 2ChZ in 1950-th.

Such cases as we can see at OP are sold on ebay even with sapphire glas for $40 with free P&P (actually for $50 but you can always try "best offer" option), or can be ordered from china directly and it would be cheaper. To drill additional hole and place there a bushing for push-button - it's piece of cake to watchmaster with regular equipment - 10-15 minutes of work.

Also it would be interesting to see back case of OP watch and open it.

What I want to say - I love the convertion that OP bought, and how it done scrupulous (personally I want one like this, and now seeking for spare ChK28 movement, and I would like to make it in "motorcycle" variant - winding crown at approx. 1,5 hour, so the push-button would be at 3 hours), but we need to understand that it's not authentic. It's sad to realise that Santa Claus doesn't exist, but we are big boys, we can handle with it.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
2,391 Posts
friends ...... I am very often in the last time, I want you to speak on this in Russian. that would understand that you НАЕБЫВАЮТ
that sellers with Ukraine.
do you really think that the Soviet Union could watch put in a small box? do you really think that the Soviet Union could not put the right face?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,686 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 · (Edited)
The problem with only 1 source of evidence is that it is easy to disprove any theory. I could for example lay down your argument about the crown by saying it was replaced later on.

I bought the watch knowing it might not be original but its a great conversation starter and example of reusing old pocket watches. Anyhow where could one find these 30-40 $ chk-28? I would love to get the other version also for that cheap price.

Here is another wristwatch conversion from Paul k. @ https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/molnija-chronograph-quartet-2902186.html
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,350 Posts
I recall to have expressed more or less the very same doubts in this old thread.

I only wonder where does the information about where these marriages could have been produced come from, and if the mention of Kharkov is due to some very specific evidence, or is it just an educated guess (why not Moscow, for instance?).

I have to ask it because in the past we've already seen the trend to locate frankenmasters always "across the border", while the Net shows that there's plenty of them everywhere...
In Kharkov are located very good watch masters, for extreemly reasonable prices, it's very well known information at russians watch forums, you can verify it independently, - you can browse ebay, or local Russian/Ukrain avito.ru and aukro.ua markets to see that there are a lot of timepeces (converted, marriages, not even USSR watches) from Kharkov, thay can even compete with bulgarian masters, for example on ebay:
1. Recently ebay was flooded by ChK28 for only $165 (!) from Cherkassy - 252509945499 (and other items of this seller).
2. 191984411161 and other items of this seller.
3. 361751855768 and other items of this seller.
4. 361750087210 and other items of this seller (361752022224, 172359545538, 361751870798, 142132831202, 142133883096, 172358124570, 172359545538).
etc, etc, etc, - put in "vintage marriage watch" in ebay search and 30 % of it would by from Ukrain, 30 % from Bulgaria (rough estimation but close to real situation).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,350 Posts
The problem with only 1 source of evidence is that it is easy to disprove any theory. I could for example lay down your argument about the crown by saying it was replaced later on. I bought the watch knowing it might not be original but its a great conversation starter and example of reusing old pocket watches. Anyhow where could one find these 30-40 $ chk-28? I would love to get the other version also for that cheap price.
1. It's not one source, it's plenty of evidences - stainless steel case when at that time USSR was using brass+chrom plating; Absence of such watch in catalogues; Documents are for pocket watch ChK28 and it is explicitly stated "pocket"; why to replase crown?; Why not dial is converted for wrist figures layout?; Why the box is too small for wrist?
2. "but its a great conversation starter and example of reusing old pocket watches" - nobody refuses this, I only saying, that it's not authentic.
3. "Anyhow where could one find these 30-40 $ chk-28" - at russian german242 forum it's regular price for movement, $80-100 for watch in good condition. At the flea market you can buy for $30-50 watch in good condition. It's surprise to you, that domestic and international prices are different!? If you can - go to the flea market in Ukrain and buy it for $40, if you cant - go to ebay and buy converted for $400-500 and still you'll save some money on tickets there and back.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
2,391 Posts
1. It's not one source, it's plenty of evidences - stainless steel case when at that time USSR was using brass+chrom plating; Absence of such watch in catalogues; Documents are for pocket watch ChK28 and it is explicitly stated "pocket"; why to replase crown?; Why not dial is converted for wrist figures layout?; Why the box is too small for wrist?
2. "but its a great conversation starter and example of reusing old pocket watches" - nobody refuses this, I only saying, that it's not authentic.
3. "Anyhow where could one find these 30-40 $ chk-28" - at russian german242 forum it's regular price for movement, $80-100 for watch in good condition. At the flea market you can buy it for $30-50 wath in good condition. It's surprise to you, that domestic and international prices are different!?
вся проблема в том что этим парням очень трудно доказать.

the problem is that these guys are very difficult to prove.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,350 Posts
вся проблема в том что этим парням очень трудно доказать.

the problem is that these guys are very difficult to prove.
Not a problem! Russia is very hospitable country, all people are welcome, contact me in Saint-Petersburg if any member would be there, and I'll gladly show them all.
 
1 - 20 of 42 Posts
Top