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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
"Kaziui Žižiui. 1935 III 4. Liet. Šiaul. Sk. Bendrad." Helvetia 32 ?

Something historically interesting for watch stuff in Lithuania I have found today.

Engraving:
Kaziui Žižiui
1935 III 4
Liet. Šiaul. Sk.
Bendrad.

Some words are abbreviated, full engraving would look like this:
Kaziui Žižiui
1935 III 4
Lietuvos Šiaulių Skyrius
Bendradarbiai

Translation:
For Kazys Žyžys
1935 III 4
Šiauliai department, Lithuania
From coworkers

Also there is engraving on backcover "KŽ"

Should have beed quite an expensive watch in the day. It is chronometer grade with 3 adj. and platina plated. You can see "PLATININE" between engraving letters.
And it was not some safe queen because the backcover plating is gone so must have been used as a daily beater.

Movement looks like modified Helvetia 32/32A or something pre 32.
bidfun-db Archive: Watch Movements: Helvetia 32A

Anyone with a ninja-caliber-recognition skills is more than welcome :)

What the hell is "Lifetime"?
Mikrolisk gives several results Mikrolisk - The horological trade mark index
Most likely are Lifetime Bulova and Lifetime Macy. I removed Mace from candidates because Lifetime was something "Lifetime series"...
So it may have some connection to Bulova.
But how did that thing end up in Lithuania?
1935 is between WW1 and WW2 when Lithuania was an independant European country and maybe imported some oversees luxury stuff :/






Something bad happened in 1936 and lousy watchmaker just glued the dial back... One dial pin is missing
Back of dial is all in some oil/glue. So is the front of movement.

Balance staff is sitting strong and stable so I think it should go no problem after cleaning all that oil/glue.
Mainspring is broken





I have requested a reseller for more history of this watch because he can contact with the owner. This watch was that owner's grandfather's
 

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Re: Kaziui Žižiui. 1935 III 4. Liet. Šiaul. Sk. Bendrad.

Cool/
Adam
 

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Re: Kaziui Žižiui. 1935 III 4. Liet. Šiaul. Sk. Bendrad.

I doubt it's Chronometer" grade; there were a lot of watches that use "Chronometre" or variations simply as grand sounding trade names in this era, especially into small countries outside the scope of major trademark registries.

I find the design rather interesting; the size of the crown wheel relative to the ratchet wheel is a surprising ratio. I'd love to see the dial side of this.

Its probably not from Helvetia though; the pallet bridge/cock difference isn't one that you'd typically find on watches from the same manufacturer. Likewise the use of top-down screws on the balance cap jewel on yours versus the bottom up design used by Helvetia
 

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Re: Kaziui Žižiui. 1935 III 4. Liet. Šiaul. Sk. Bendrad.

I doubt it's Chronometer" grade; there were a lot of watches that use "Chronometre" or variations simply as grand sounding trade names in this era, especially into small countries outside the scope of major trademark registries.

I find the design rather interesting; the size of the crown wheel relative to the ratchet wheel is a surprising ratio. I'd love to see the dial side of this.

Its probably not from Helvetia though; the pallet bridge/cock difference isn't one that you'd typically find on watches from the same manufacturer. Likewise the use of top-down screws on the balance cap jewel on yours versus the bottom up design used by Helvetia
"CHRONOMTETRE"
Was probably the previous watch, this dial has been fitted onto this movement (with glue)
A
 

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Re: Kaziui Žižiui. 1935 III 4. Liet. Šiaul. Sk. Bendrad.

Dial actually reads "Chronometer", not "Chronometre" or "CHRONOMTETRE", so it could possibly be one?
Position of missing dial foot matches the position of the locating hole on the movement, so the dial is most likely the original, and not a replacement.
"Lifetime" name is different to the Bulova registered name "Gift of a Lifetime", which is most likely simply an advertising "gimmick", as no watch or advert for a watch bearing that name has been seen.
 

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Re: Kaziui Žižiui. 1935 III 4. Liet. Šiaul. Sk. Bendrad.

Hm You think it is franken?
Dial pins fit just fine but one of them is broken off so was glued on :/
ah, ok my misunderstanding, I thought completely different.
a
 
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Re: Kaziui Žižiui. 1935 III 4. Liet. Šiaul. Sk. Bendrad.

Note that it says "3 Adjustments", which is pretty low (and not to be confused with "adjusted to 3 positions", which actually be 5 or 6 adjustments total).
Ah, so does that mean it is not a chronometer?
 

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Re: Kaziui Žižiui. 1935 III 4. Liet. Šiaul. Sk. Bendrad.

Note that it says "3 Adjustments", which is pretty low (and not to be confused with "adjusted to 3 positions", which actually be 5 or 6 adjustments total).
Really, there is a defined difference between those statements?
i never saw that, can you point to some article or reasoning.

and _Chronometer" versus "chronometre" is jusr country language spelling, no difference (i believe) in specification, indeed I have seen Rolex's with both spellings on the dial.
"CHRONOMTETRE" is a figment of my bad spelling
adam
 

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Re: Kaziui Žižiui. 1935 III 4. Liet. Šiaul. Sk. Bendrad.

I have seen Omega Constellation ChronometRE
absolutely
Chronometre is French
Chronometer is German and English
Chronometro is Spanish

Berner- dictionnaire De L'horlogerie
 

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Re: Kaziui Žižiui. 1935 III 4. Liet. Šiaul. Sk. Bendrad.

Thing is, those are just words. Within Switzerland and I think the US, the use of term is somewhat controlled these days, but that wasn't always the case. And it's definitely not the case for watches sold <outside> of switzerland (which is why you don't see the word engraved on the movement, just on the dial which may or may not have been produced in Switzerland).

As for the "adjustments", there are a total of 9 adjustments that can be found: Heat, Cold, Isochronism, and each of six positions (Dial Up, Dial Down, Crown Up, Crown Right, Crown Left, Crown Down). Many people get confused between Adjustments and Positions; remember that while all Positions are Adjustments, not all Adjustments are Positions.
 

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Re: Kaziui Žižiui. 1935 III 4. Liet. Šiaul. Sk. Bendrad.

Thing is, those are just words. Within Switzerland and I think the US, the use of term is somewhat controlled these days, but that wasn't always the case. And it's definitely not the case for watches sold <outside> of switzerland (which is why you don't see the word engraved on the movement, just on the dial which may or may not have been produced in Switzerland).

As for the "adjustments", there are a total of 9 adjustments that can be found: Heat, Cold, Isochronism, and each of six positions (Dial Up, Dial Down, Crown Up, Crown Right, Crown Left, Crown Down). Many people get confused between Adjustments and Positions; remember that while all Positions are Adjustments, not all Adjustments are Positions.
OK
But what is differnce between"
3 positions and 3 adjustments.
My understanding is 3 adjustments is Heat, Cold, Isochronism.
What is 3 positions then?
A watch marked Adjusted 5 positions is actually equivalent to one marked 8 adjustments.
A watch marked as 9 adjustments is equivalent to one marked 6 and is usually stated as Adjusted 6 positions

its all adjustments, but 6 are position related while the other three are temp/Isochronism.


I think positions and adjustments are the same

Thanks
Adam
 

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Re: Kaziui Žižiui. 1935 III 4. Liet. Šiaul. Sk. Bendrad.

I'm not sure I follow your logic, since this:

I think positions and adjustments are the same
Doesn't makes sense when you also say this:

A watch marked Adjusted 5 positions is actually equivalent to one marked 8 adjustments.
A watch marked as 9 adjustments is equivalent to one marked 6 and is usually stated as Adjusted 6 positions
Clearly you do understand that they aren't the same, since you note that 5 "Positions" is 8 "Adjustments".

The challenge here with both "chronometer" and "Position" is that the word is a shortened form of the real expression (which normally is too long to engrave on a watch).

The in case of "Positions" the real term is "Adjusted To Positions", which is different then "Adjusted for Temperature" and "Adjusted for Isochronism". All of those can be referred to simply as "Adjusted". But "3 Positions" only means "Adjusted to 3 Positions"; while it may imply that the watch is also adjusted to temperature and isochronism, if it doesn't SAY that, then it doesn't need to be. So in this case, "3 Adjustments" COULD mean three positions (with no temperature or isochonism). But most likely it meant Heat and Cold (since we can see it's a split bi-metallic balance with adjustment screws) and one position (crown up, the standard position for a pocket watch and the only position that most consumer grade pocket watches are adjusted to).

In the case of "Chronometer", there are actually three terms that could be implied; Observatory Chronometer, Marine Chronometer or Chronometer Escapement. In other words, the term "Chronometer" in and off itself is actually meaningless. Or at least, it was until companies like Rolex (who sold actual observatory certified chronometers) realized that their "chronometers" were competing against "chronometers" that weren't nearly as good a quality. I think this, fundamentally, is what led to COSC and the attendant legislation that sought to bring measurable and enforceable rules to the chronometer market.
 

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Re: Kaziui Žižiui. 1935 III 4. Liet. Šiaul. Sk. Bendrad.

I'm not sure I follow your logic, since this:



Doesn't makes sense when you also say this:



Clearly you do understand that they aren't the same, since you note that 5 "Positions" is 8 "Adjustments".

The challenge here with both "chronometer" and "Position" is that the word is a shortened form of the real expression (which normally is too long to engrave on a watch).

The in case of "Positions" the real term is "Adjusted To Positions", which is different then "Adjusted for Temperature" and "Adjusted for Isochronism". All of those can be referred to simply as "Adjusted". But "3 Positions" only means "Adjusted to 3 Positions"; while it may imply that the watch is also adjusted to temperature and isochronism, if it doesn't SAY that, then it doesn't need to be. So in this case, "3 Adjustments" COULD mean three positions (with no temperature or isochonism). But most likely it meant Heat and Cold (since we can see it's a split bi-metallic balance with adjustment screws) and one position (crown up, the standard position for a pocket watch and the only position that most consumer grade pocket watches are adjusted to).

In the case of "Chronometer", there are actually three terms that could be implied; Observatory Chronometer, Marine Chronometer or Chronometer Escapement. In other words, the term "Chronometer" in and off itself is actually meaningless. Or at least, it was until companies like Rolex (who sold actual observatory certified chronometers) realized that their "chronometers" were competing against "chronometers" that weren't nearly as good a quality. I think this, fundamentally, is what led to COSC and the attendant legislation that sought to bring measurable and enforceable rules to the chronometer market.
OK
Fully understand now where you are coming from
On "chronometer/mtre" spec.
That was quite clear to me, the spelling is a "language" issue, the definition is far more than that as you say, and we have other "chronometer" specs like Patek Philippe (own)

On adjustments versus position.
Thanks your time, I fully get your point now
adam
 
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Re: Kaziui Žižiui. 1935 III 4. Liet. Šiaul. Sk. Bendrad.

AS I saw the movement my first assoation was : Paul Wyler . He uses exact this regulage and the hole design incl. chronometer on the dial matches. He sold a quite high amound of his watches in america. May be he uses "Lifetime" as a distributor. I just have a watch with his typical unbreakable spiral but the movement in hole look quite simular. Here is a drawing out of his patent for his balance system. This movement matches quite well if you remove the invention itself. I'll have a look after the watch than you can compare better angle and other parts.

here:

SAM_3349.JPG
 

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Re: Kaziui Žižiui. 1935 III 4. Liet. Šiaul. Sk. Bendrad.

Very typical the milled out circle around the anchor wheel bridge. I've never seen this early movement before. I like Paul Wyler as a very own experimental mind. This movements are done by himself.

Kind regards Silke
 
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