WatchUSeek Watch Forums banner

41 - 60 of 355 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
846 Posts
Past releases were always number limited, this one is time limited and I suppose Toki numbers could easily exceed 1000 or even 2000, which will not propel its future price as much and exactly that is the purpose of those 10 minutes :) Plus I really do not intend to sell the watch if I snag one, I really love the way it looks.
The Mori was time limited and one of the least limited models, yet sells for the highest price.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
572 Posts
The Mori was time limited and one of the least limited models, yet sells for the highest price.
It was also considered for GPHG and is one of the most striking green watches in existence. I think, similar to the Ming 17.09, the Toki will hold the price well, but I don't see it going for the same premium the Mori is going for (I hope I am wrong, in that case, I would gladly trade the Toki for the Mori).
 
  • Like
Reactions: singularityseven

·
Registered
Joined
·
388 Posts
It was also considered for GPHG and is one of the most striking green watches in existence. I think, similar to the Ming 17.09, the Toki will hold the price well, but I don't see it going for the same premium the Mori is going for (I hope I am wrong, in that case, I would gladly trade the Toki for the Mori).
I actually do not care, I will not resell or trade it so I have to put aside 1800$ plus 20% VAT. I honestly find Toki much more beautiful than Mori. I like the green of Mori pretty much, but I have many green watches and not a single salmon one. I did not even try buying Mori last year, because was not in a position to spend such an amount. I understand there are watch lovers eager to pay 2x and even 3x the retail price, but I am not one of them. For me even the retail is significant :)
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,183 Posts
How much better would a Selitta or even an ETA be over the Miyota?

I'm still working my way up the learning curve when it comes to movements, so I still struggle with value comparisons on them.
A Sellita/ETA at the top or COSC grade level are reasonably impressive, both to look at, and from a performance perspective. The Miyota 90S5 operates within a larger range of performance values (-10 to +30 sec per day) versus -5 to +15spd on a top grade and -4 to +6 on COSC grade ETA2824-2. From experience, my Miyota 9 series watches typically run at between +10 and +20 spd, whereas my ETA/Sellita watches remain under +10spd, standard grade included. Both movements are easy to service and regulate across the globe, with the 90S5 being cheaper than a top or COSC grade ETA2824-2, both at wholesale and retail. The 90S5 is touted as being in Miyota's premium movement lineup, but there's nothing really premium about it's appearance:
15887986


And this is a top grade ETA2824-2:
15887987

I will admit it isn't fair to compare these two movements, but the 90S5 seems to be the best Miyota has to offer, and it's just not "high end" enough. Citizen (who own Miyota) even avoided their own movements for their recent (and more expensive) watches, and decided to go with a La-Joux Perret movement instead. But those watches are $5k+, so again not the same ballpark.

But for me the real issue with the Miyota 90S5 is the wobble. On larger watches that have beefier/heavier/thicker cases (Zelos divers, etc) this doesn't really impact the wearing experience. But on a delicate and sleek case like the Kurono 3 handers, this is amplified. A slight jerk, and the watch goes into freespin (since it is a unidirectional wind movement) and the whole case starts to shake. I even grabbed this on video (Go to 6:00 -
). It takes away from the whole experience, in my opinion.

I've made peace with the fact that Kurono can't really do better right now (unless Seiko helps out by making some of their other movements available for commercial use) as long as they want to keep the watches entirely Japanese Made. That said, I will be getting a Toki because I think it looks fantastic, but I will be going into this with zero expectations from the movement.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
388 Posts
These tolerances of different mass produced movements are misleading btw. They depend on the regulation efforts even more than on the inherent capability of keeping a steady and small deviation. How accurate is a movement that for the every 24 hours gives the following deviations - +50secs, +48 secs, + 51 secs and ... you get the point :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,177 Posts
A Sellita/ETA at the top or COSC grade level are reasonably impressive, both to look at, and from a performance perspective. The Miyota 90S5 operates within a larger range of performance values (-10 to +30 sec per day) versus -5 to +15spd on a top grade and -4 to +6 on COSC grade ETA2824-2. From experience, my Miyota 9 series watches typically run at between +10 and +20 spd, whereas my ETA/Sellita watches remain under +10spd, standard grade included. Both movements are easy to service and regulate across the globe, with the 90S5 being cheaper than a top or COSC grade ETA2824-2, both at wholesale and retail. The 90S5 is touted as being in Miyota's premium movement lineup, but there's nothing really premium about it's appearance:
View attachment 15887986

And this is a top grade ETA2824-2:
View attachment 15887987
I will admit it isn't fair to compare these two movements, but the 90S5 seems to be the best Miyota has to offer, and it's just not "high end" enough. Citizen (who own Miyota) even avoided their own movements for their recent (and more expensive) watches, and decided to go with a La-Joux Perret movement instead. But those watches are $5k+, so again not the same ballpark.

But for me the real issue with the Miyota 90S5 is the wobble. On larger watches that have beefier/heavier/thicker cases (Zelos divers, etc) this doesn't really impact the wearing experience. But on a delicate and sleek case like the Kurono 3 handers, this is amplified. A slight jerk, and the watch goes into freespin (since it is a unidirectional wind movement) and the whole case starts to shake. I even grabbed this on video (Go to 6:00 -
). It takes away from the whole experience, in my opinion.

I've made peace with the fact that Kurono can't really do better right now (unless Seiko helps out by making some of their other movements available for commercial use) as long as they want to keep the watches entirely Japanese Made. That said, I will be getting a Toki because I think it looks fantastic, but I will be going into this with zero expectations from the movement.
Citizen bought La-Joux Perret specifically to step up their movements above Miyota because they couldn't go raiding FC or Arnold & Son for theirs. I think it's nice they are using Miyota (or Japanese) in a Japanese watch. Heck we've had this discussio with Minase and their peculiar choice of going Swiss. That said, you could decorate and finish that Miyota to be something really nice if you wanted to put in the effort (and costs).

That said, I seem to remember that Miyota has better movements than that, though don't quote me since I'm not really a movement expert
 
  • Like
Reactions: singularityseven

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,183 Posts
These tolerances of different mass produced movements are misleading btw. They depend on the regulation efforts even more than on the inherent capability of keeping a steady and small deviation. How accurate is a movement that for the every 24 hours gives the following deviations - +50secs, +48 secs, + 51 secs and ... you get the point :)
I understand the problem with averaging, which is why I included some of my own personal experiences. I log my watches with a time-grapher for instantaneous accuracy and iOS app WatchTracker for daily/weekly/monthly accuracy. With my Chrono/Kurono Bullseye, I was observing roughly +15spd instantaneous and about +18spd over a few days.

Citizen bought La-Joux Perret specifically to step up their movements above Miyota because they couldn't go raiding FC or Arnold & Son for theirs. I think it's nice they are using Miyota (or Japanese) in a Japanese watch. Heck we've had this discussio with Minase and their peculiar choice of going Swiss. That said, you could decorate and finish that Miyota to be something really nice if you wanted to put in the effort (and costs).

That said, I seem to remember that Miyota has better movements than that, though don't quote me since I'm not really a movement expert
Yeah, I think it's an interesting direction they're taking and I'd love to check out one of their LJP equipped watches at some point.

I thought so too, but I wasn't able to find any other movement in their catalogue that might be a better replacement. I'm hoping to be proven wrong, but I couldn't find anything here - Movements | MIYOTA MOVEMENT
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
846 Posts
I actually do not care, I will not resell or trade it so I have to put aside 1800$ plus 20% VAT. I honestly find Toki much more beautiful than Mori. I like the green of Mori pretty much, but I have many green watches and not a single salmon one. I did not even try buying Mori last year, because was not in a position to spend such an amount. I understand there are watch lovers eager to pay 2x and even 3x the retail price, but I am not one of them. For me even the retail is significant :)
Hmmmm so you say you are not sure about committing to buy it because of concerns with the movement (not worth the price) and size for your wrist. If you do decide to buy it and you realize that your concerns were correct and its too small for your wrist you will not resell or trade it even though you spent a "significant" amount of your hard earned cash on a watch you do not wear and you could likely recoup that cash and put it towards something you will wear.?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
388 Posts
Hmmmm so you say you are not sure about committing to buy it because of concerns with the movement (not worth the price) and size for your wrist. If you do decide to buy it and you realize that your concerns were correct and its too small for your wrist you will not resell or trade it even though you spent a "significant" amount of your hard earned cash on a watch you do not wear and you could likely recoup that cash and put it towards something you will wear.?
Yep, that is exactly what I say :) I have a collection of around 100 watches and I do not wear most of them. I never sell a watch, because I love them all, I had an affair with each one of them and do not want to part with even a single one :) And I will wear the Toki, definitely not the smallest watch I own, I have some vintage pieces at 32mm and still wear them. I love the dial and the simplicity of Kurono.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4 Posts
I’m having a hard time deciding on this watch. On one hand I love the dial and the case - even the size, 37mm.
But man, I feel like using that movement is almost inexcuseable. The relative inaccuracy is one thing, but I’ve read people saying they are able to hear the “spin sound” of the movement sometimes just from turning their wrist to check the time, turning the steering wheel etc. Given that I don’t own 100 watches, I’m not sure it’s a wise decision for a watch that would get a lot of wrist time. I wish they used a movement of better quality, even if it meant bumping up the prize slightly (I realize Hajime Asaoka has a view of what he considers “affordable”).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
388 Posts
I’m having a hard time deciding on this watch. On one hand I love the dial and the case - even the size, 37mm.
But man, I feel like using that movement is almost inexcuseable. The relative inaccuracy is one thing, but I’ve read people saying they are able to hear the “spin sound” of the movement sometimes just from turning their wrist to check the time, turning the steering wheel etc. Given that I don’t own 100 watches, I’m not sure it’s a wise decision for a watch that would get a lot of wrist time. I wish they used a movement of better quality, even if it meant bumping up the prize slightly (I realize Hajime Asaoka has a view of what he considers “affordable”).
I hear most of my auto ETAs too. I think small and thin watches should be preferably handwinding. The thinnest automatic watch I have is my Ebel and its Lemania movement is soooo quiet. But that is an exception. ETAs and Miyotas in thick diver's cases are inaudible mainly too.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,177 Posts
I understand the problem with averaging, which is why I included some of my own personal experiences. I log my watches with a time-grapher for instantaneous accuracy and iOS app WatchTracker for daily/weekly/monthly accuracy. With my Chrono/Kurono Bullseye, I was observing roughly +15spd instantaneous and about +18spd over a few days.



Yeah, I think it's an interesting direction they're taking and I'd love to check out one of their LJP equipped watches at some point.

I thought so too, but I wasn't able to find any other movement in their catalogue that might be a better replacement. I'm hoping to be proven wrong, but I couldn't find anything here - Movements | MIYOTA MOVEMENT
It's funny how they do actually decorate the entire front of the 90S5 (open heart) when only a small portion of it is visible but the back is ugly as heck. Actually some of their standards look better than the premiums . . .
 
  • Like
Reactions: singularityseven

·
Registered
Joined
·
375 Posts
So is the 7mm height correct? Movement tear sheet says minimum watch height of ~8.5mm and the photos don’t look like a particularly thin case.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,351 Posts
So is the 7mm height correct? Movement tear sheet says minimum watch height of ~8.5mm and the photos don’t look like a particularly thin case.
I assume that its 7mm not including the crystal. There's gotta be a typo on their part, because it definitely looks thicker than 7mm to me, which is good IMO. 7mm would be crazy thin.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
572 Posts
Assuming it is similarly proportioned to the Bullseye I owned/reviewed, it will be 10.5mm from top to bottom (including crystal and caseback).
The Kurono website claims 7mm including crystal, which would be very impressive - technically walking into the ultra-thin territory. 10.5mm sounds more believable.
 
41 - 60 of 355 Posts
Top