WatchUSeek Watch Forums banner

1 - 20 of 42 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
78 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Hi,

I saw a post in the Tissot forum stating that production of lemania movements are beeing discontinued. What will then happen to the movement used in the Speedmaster? Isn't the Omega 861/1861 in fact Lemania movements? Will Omega start making Speedmasters based on the 7650 instead?

Stupid question, but I'm a bit confused... A Speedmaster without the Lemania movement would lose a lot of the space connection obiously...

Eric
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
12,931 Posts
To answer your question, Lemania was part of Omega from 1932 till 1985 (year at which it was sold to Heuer who resold the Lemania company to Investcorp in 1989 and which was sold by Investcorp to Breguet in 1999). Lemania movements aren't used in Tissot chronographs anymore, the Lemania 5100 are not used in Omega chronos anymore same remark for the Lemania 1340 and Lemania 2310 movements. The Lemania 2310 was used by Patek before it made its own inhouse chrono movement (see pic enclosed) but also by Ulysse Nardin in their limited moonphase handwound chrono and it is used by Breguet in the ref 5237BA/12/9V6 and in the Vacheron Constantin les Historiques Chrono.The Lemania 1350 is only used by Breguet in the Type XX and Type XXI chronos as well as by Ebel in their 125, 1911 and Tarawa chronographs. The speedy pro is still powered by the cal 1861 (a modified lemania 1873) and same for cal 1866 for the speedy moonphase.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
142 Posts
I read someplace that Lemania is owned by the Swatch group now. They own Omega also. And production of the L1873 is not discontinued, but is now restricted to solely to Omega (cal. 1861, used in the Speedmaster moonwatch) because of that, which is why TAG Heuer had to change the Carerra reissue in 2000.


Lemania is also now making Breguet movements...and is not Breguet also owned by the Swatch group? TAG Heuer, being owned by the competition (LVMH), would naturally lose out. Odd that Tissot would get left out...Swatch owns them too. However, Tissot and Omega are in different niches in the watch universe. TAG and Omega directly compete, which is yet another reason the Swatch honchos wouldn't want the L1873, the last great chronograph movement with ties to F. Piguet (the designer of its 27 CHRO C12, aka L2310) that is in production, available to the competition....

Miao, Cat

Miao, Cat
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
12,931 Posts
Lemania belongs to Swatch and it was integrated to the Swatch group in 2000 after Swatch baught Breguet and La Nouvelle Lemania. Tissot was and is classified as a middle of the range brand in the past and even today so that is why Lemania movements were not sold to Tissot after 1972. Tag doesn't compete with Omega and was never able to compete with Omega, it was never a manufacture known for the reliability of its movements, it was just an assembleur who baught eta, felsa and valjoux movements who engraved them with their name Heuer and without doing any modifications. Heuer never played in the same ground than Omega. Even today, Omega is superior to Tag as it was the case in the past.You made a mistake Piguet never designed the lemania 2310, it designed the 1185. Albert Piguet who worked for Lemania designed the 27 chrono c12 in 1942.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,144 Posts
Georges,

I've heard people saying that the later day c.5100 have plastic wheels in them, like those used in the some Sinns and Fortises.

Does it mean,
1) the earlier c.5100 have all metal wheels?
2) if not, how does the performance of the c.5100 with plactic wheels compare with those with metal wheels?
c) how does the c.1040 and c.1045 in old Omegas compare with the c.5100?

Thanks. :)
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
12,931 Posts
Hi HenryThe 1045/5100 didn't and doesn't use plastic wheels but nylon parts for a better lubrication of the movement and this since the introduction of the movement since 1974. The 1045 is different in terms of finish than the 5100 and it has the typical Omega rose gold finish.
The 1045 is a refinished 5100. However I can't compare a 5100 with a 1340/1350 which are far more complex and far more top of the range than the 5100, the 1340 is the self winding version of the lemania 1973. The metallic parts on the 1040/1340/1350 are very durable and same comment for the nylon wheels of the 1045/5100. The 1045 was produced by Omega in 1974 because the 1040 was too costly to manufacture.

regards

georges
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,532 Posts
Henry T said:
Georges,

I've heard people saying that the later day c.5100 have plastic wheels in them, like those used in the some Sinns and Fortises.

Does it mean,
1) the earlier c.5100 have all metal wheels?
2) if not, how does the performance of the c.5100 with plactic wheels compare with those with metal wheels?
c) how does the c.1040 and c.1045 in old Omegas compare with the c.5100?

Thanks. :)
1. Well, the clutch wheel is one of the nylon parts, as well as the day and date wheels and a few others parts.
2. The use of nylon parts offer the advantages of lower production costs, and self-lubrication. They're not as pretty, but they're not meant to be.
c. IMO, they're both excellent movements. From the outside, the 5100 seems to offer more, with the addition of a Day indicator and a separate 24 hour dial at the 12 o'clock position. Inside, the nylon parts used in the 5100 are generally seen as an advantage, not just in lowering costs, but in the longevity of the movement. Granted, the 5100 isn't as pretty as the 1340, but it wasn't meant to be. It was designed to be a simple, rugged, workhorse of a movement.

eric
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
12,931 Posts
Henry T said:
Georges,

So, the nylon parts in the c.5100 would not make it less durable or perform poorly?

Thanks :)
To answer your question,they are very durable and perform very well, the main point of the 5100 when introducing these nylon parts was to have a great movement lubrication.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
677 Posts
Correct (save Spelling), Yep, Wrong, Wrong Wrong...

georges zaslavsky said:
Lemania belongs to Swatch and it was integrated to the Swatch group in 2000 after Swatch baught
That's spelt bought not 'baught'.

georges zaslavsky said:
Breguet and La Nouvelle Lemania.
I'm not sure of the date, but Swatch Group did purchase both Breguet and Lemania at some point in the past 10 years or so. In fact, Lemania's official name is "Montres Breguet" today, a stomach turning development for collectors who favoried their rugged and sturdy movements in watches that were affordable, and not limited to the "Snooty brands".

georges zaslavsky said:
Tissot was and is classified as a middle of the range brand in the past and even today so that is why Lemania movements were not sold to Tissot after 1972.
Middle, upper, lower... In any instance Tissot has typically been considered to have a range lower than that of Omega's, back in the day and currently. In fact for many years Omega and Tissot were part of a holding firm called SSIH (or somesuch), which was sort of a precursor of what would become Swatch. It is not an unfair statement to sat that many/most people considered Tissot to be a "Poor Man's Omega", in a way similar to how some would refer to Movado's of the same era as being a "Poor Man's Zenith" or Tudor's (then and now) being a "poor (or sane) man's Rolex". You say the date was 1972, that may well be dead on or off a couple of years, but it's the right era...

georges zaslavsky said:
Tag doesn't compete with Omega
Wrong, TAG and Omega does compete for the same dollars, yens, marks, and shekels from prospective customers. TAG has a a number of models that compete directly against Omega models. In fact, recent changes to Omega's Speedmaster 7750 based product line reflect increased competition with TAG-Heuer on their recently minted 7750 based Carrera model.

georges zaslavsky said:
and was never able to compete with Omega,
That's Wrong too! Not only has TAG-Heuer and Omega competed through out TAG's history, they're strongest epoch of competition was in the 20 years prior to the "TAG era"... Omega and Heuer competed head to head, especially in the Chronograph sector for dozens of years.

In fact, it's widely known that Omega (which recently announced it paid some 47m Pounds or Dollars for the right to be the official timekeeper of the 2012 London Olympic Games) had been awarded that responsibility some 22-25 times, more than any other firms :gold . Who has been called on the next most number of times? :silver Heuer, some 14 times, including several times prior to Omega's first award in 1932 and as recently as 1980 for both the Lake Placid Winter Games, and the 1980 Moscow Summer games. Thus, in addition to competing, Heuer has won numerous encounters with Omega in the past.

I'm not sure who claims :bronze next runner up, but it's likely either Longines, Seiko or possibly Swatch.

georges zaslavsky said:
it was never a manufacture known for the reliability of its movements,
It owned Lemania for a time in the 1980's, including a time when Omega was shipping not only c.861's, but also c.1045's if not also c.1040 based watches...

In addition, Heuer was part of the consortium which brought the Chronomatic automatic chronograph movement to the public. Which was among the first automatic chronograph movements made, if not the first. The Chronomatic movement is a reliable movement.

The Chronomatic may not be to your tastes Georges, but it was a solid and reliable movement. The reason it is not around isn't because it wasn't reliable, but rather because more attractive movements (full rotor with three registers and day/day-date) were available at the same or comparable prices to them.

georges zaslavsky said:
it was just an assembleur
In addition to their participation with the Chronomatic consortium, Heuer produced many advancements in electronic timekeeping, especally those related to timing sporting events. I know that many people, likely Georges included, will look down at their noses at this. But face facts, sporting events like the Olympics, USAC/CART/IRL/NASCAR/F1 have required electronic timing for decades, and save for Junior/High School track meets, official timing hasn't been done by judges with mechanical wind up stopwatches in several decades.

georges zaslavsky said:
who baught eta, felsa and valjoux movements
Don't forget Landeron!

georges zaslavsky said:
who engraved them with their name Heuer and without doing any modifications.
I wouldn't go so far to say that Heuer never did any modifications, as I'm sure they have on some select pieces, but I will grant you that Heuer was not a "Haught Jewelry" brand as Omega has aspirations (and succeeds sometimes) to be, nor has Heuer ever entered into Chronometre competitions like Omega, Rolex, Longines and Zenith has.

Heuer was always more towards the segment of the market that sought a solid dependable reliable rugged tool watch. And they were tough to beat in terms of value. That was their chosen market segment or niche.

With the arrival of TAG on the scene, the TAG-Heuer firm slowly abandoned their former niche, and tried to move more to the Jewelry side of the watch spectrum. Certainly less of the tool watch segment/niche that they formerly operated in.

georges zaslavsky said:
Heuer never played in the same ground than Omega.
As I have pointed out throughout this reply, this is completely, absolutely and demonstratably incorrect.

If you need examples of direct competition here are several:

1] Competitors> early 1960's Omega Seamaster c.321 vs. Heuer Carrera v.72
2] Competitors> 1967 Autavia v.72 Vs. Speedmaster c.321
3] Competitors> early 1970's Heuer Autavia v.7736 vs. Omega Seamaster c.861
4] Competitors> early 1980's Heuer Carrera L.5100 Vs. Omega Speedmaster c.1045

There are four examples, need more? Should I start taking pictures of Stopwatches?

1] Omega Olympic Rattrapante Sports Pocket watch/timer.
2] "The Twins!" Pocket Chrono Ref. 11.204

While the Omega Rattrapante was used to time races and road rallyes in Blackburn Lancashire, the Heuer's were used to time SCCA (Sports Car Club of Amica events in in the St. Louis region of the USA.

Competitors? I think so. I mean I can go on, if need be.

georges zaslavsky said:
Even today, Omega is superior to Tag
Georges, that's a personal opinion, which of course you are entitled to hold if you'd like. However, I and many other people will point out that the difference between certain current TAG-Heuer models and Omega models are not so great to warrant an unreserved label of superiority to one brand over another. I can point out several TAG-Heuer models that I feel to be the equal or better of their direct Omega competition, and that IS what those models are, competitors.

georges zaslavsky said:
as it was the case in the past.
And again, as I've pointed out above, Omega and (Pre-TAG) Heuer were direct competitors in the past, and both firms had their victories and defeats at each other's hands.

georges zaslavsky said:
You made a mistake Piguet never designed the lemania 2310, it designed the 1185.
However, he was not the only person who's made a mistake, as I've shown above and below...

georges zaslavsky said:
Albert Piguet who worked for Lemania designed the 27 chrono c12 in 1942.
Correct, however you have a mistake in your .signature thread, Georges...

georges zaslavsky said:
Omega the sign of Excellence since 1848
That's the passage... The firm that would be come the Omega Watch Company was founded in 1848, that is true. However, they didn't use the Omega name, logo or symbol until 1892 or 1894... :oops: So technically, Omega hasn't been the sign of Excellence since 1848 but rather since that later date...

Georges, I suspect we all know (or at least have a good idea) how you feel about various (typically non-Rolex, Lemania, Piguet and perhaps Zenith) movements. I also suspect we know how you feel about brands other than Rolex and Omega.

That's fine, nothing wrong with having an opinion. Nothing wrong with expressing your opinion(s), as opinions...

However, if you're going to comment on other brands, especially ones which you have little direct experience with, you might consider checking the history and background of those brands/firms and your knowledge of them before replying. It'll likely save face for yourself and a bunch of time for everyone else. As the on-line and available documented history of competition between Heuer (and then TAG-Heuer) and Omega is not difficult to find...

Just a thought...

I just could not let most of the passages I respond to above, not go uncorrected...

Good Hunting everyone!

-- Chuck
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
406 Posts
with that one reply I've learnt more than I have being a member on this forum since February this year. Thanks for all the info :)
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
12,931 Posts
Re: Correct (save Spelling), Yep, Wrong, Wrong Wrong...

Interesting thaughts Chuck:) . I liked Zenith before the Nataf LVMH era which turned into a nightmare and I know you agree with me. The valjoux 7733, 7736 and 7740 movements were very far to equal the lemania 1873 not only in terms of finish, quality, accuracy and durability. The 1873 is regarded as the highest grade handwound cam operated movement.
You once said on chronocentric that the valjoux 72 was the lemania 2310 close second. Lemania 2310/2320 movements were always known for their robustness, accuracy and very smooth pushers operation, that wasn't really the case of the valjoux 72/22/23/88/92 which need somewhat more force to be operated.
Personally, I am not a fan of the new carrera powered the 7750, not my thing to be honest.
I am not a fan of the chronomatic cal 11,12,15 for many reasons:
-it is mainly a buren cal 11 with a dd module
-spare parts are nearly inexistant and are extremely expensive
-it is not as smooth to operate as compared to a lemania 1340 or 5100 (I tried an autavia cal 11 at my watchmaker a month ago but was seriously disappointed)
-the crown doesn't make things easy if you are not ambidextrous
-smaller power reserve as compared to the lemania calibres
-a modular chrono will never have the same robustness that an integrated chrono
To insure you, I also have an appreciation for excelsior park chronographs, universal geneve, longines (cal 30ch and 13zn powered watches only), hanhart the vintage ones, minerva and vintage IWC watches.
But well, everyone likes different things and taht what makes things interesting.

thanks for making debates more enriching ;-)

regards

georges
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
206 Posts
Thanks for visiting, and thanks for the insightful post, Chuck :-!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
677 Posts
Re: Correct (save Spelling), Yep, Wrong, Wrong Wrong...

georges zaslavsky said:
Interesting thaughts Chuck:) .
Thoughts and bought in English, just so you know... B-)

georges zaslavsky said:
I liked Zenith before the Nataf LVMH era which turned into a nightmare and I know you agree with me.
I do agree with you on that... Zenith's current management regime has turned a highly respected firm with sometimes "quirky" design elements to a firm that has taken a walk on the exceedingly wild side which now has nearly constant Bizzare design elements.

I'm sure it's to the tastes of some, but I never thought I'd ever say a firm has made Alain Silberstein design elements look modest and mainstream by comparision...

georges zaslavsky said:
The valjoux 7733, 7736 and 7740 movements were very far to equal the lemania 1873 not only in terms of finish, quality, accuracy and durability.
No argument here. I'm not a big fan of the 773x and 774x series. I mean I own a couple (like five or so) 7736's, and a 7733 or 7734 pocket watch, but I would not put them at the same level as a Valjoux 72, Lemania 2310, 1873 series, or even the Zenith HP146 or Excelsior Park movements.

georges zaslavsky said:
The 1873 is regarded as the highest grad self winding cam operated movement.
WRONG! The Lemania 1873 is NOT self-winding! C'mon Georges! You do know that!

georges zaslavsky said:
You once said on chronocentric that the valjoux 72 was the lemania 2310 close second.
Oh, I think I probably put it in different words... But I would say that the Valjoux 72's were in the same league as their Lemania counterparts, some people would put them very close, others not so much. In real world usage there is not a huge amount of difference in day-to-day use that would be noticable to the casual user.

georges zaslavsky said:
Lemania 2310/2320 movements were always known for their robustness, accuracy and very smooth pushers operation, that wasn't really the case of the valjoux 72/22/23/88/92 which need somewhat more force to be operated.
Well I can only tell you that I own at least a dozen or so Valjoux 72's of various flavors, and probably a a half a dozen or more c.321's (between my Seamasters and Speedmasters)... In my personal, direct, hands on experience I doubt I could do much better than 50% in trying to guess which movement was wish in a blindfolded test.

Frankly, I would like to consider my self somewhat more attuned to the subtile distinctions in chronograph operation comparted to the average Joe on the street. Perhaps I'm not.

But my point is, if there is any difference, it certainly isn't a major difference.

georges zaslavsky said:
Personally, I am not a fan of the new carrera powered the 7750, not my thing to be honest.
I wouldn't expect a 7750 to be something you'd be interested in. However, up until Basel this year Omega 7750 and 7751 based Speedmasters had snapbacks, now they will have screw backs, less than 18 months after TAG unveiled their 7750 Carrera. I do not believe it's coincidental.

georges zaslavsky said:
I am not a fan of the chronomatic cal 11,12,15 for many reasons:
-it is mainly a buren cal 11 with a dd module
Agreed, that is not the best of heritage for the movement.

georges zaslavsky said:
-spare parts are nearly inexistant and are extremely expensive
That hasn't been my experience, but mileage will vary.

georges zaslavsky said:
-it is not as smooth to operate as compared to a lemania 1340 or 5100 (I tried an autavia cal 11 at my watchmaker a month ago but was seriously disappointed)
One watch does not make for a useful sample. I have a number of Cal. 11's, 12's and 14's... Don't care for the c.15's personally. Some arenn't as smooth as others. In fact my latest 7736 purchase (a potential candidate for a David Scott worn Waltham), is significantly more difficult to actuate than any Micro-Rotor I've ever worked. Goes to show there can be significant variation among a production run, as my other 7736's are no where near as tough to activate as this one is.

georges zaslavsky said:
-the crown doesn't make things easy if you are not ambidextrous
Absolutely, and ambidextri doesn't help you as it's difficult to wind or set the watch if it's on your left wrist. I either use my left hand to wind/set while holding in my right, or turn the watch upside down.

georges zaslavsky said:
-smaller power reserve as compared to the lemania calibres
No argument here..

georges zaslavsky said:
-a modular chrono will never have the same robustness that an integrated chrono
You're using absolute statements again! I'd say, I've yet to see a modular chrono possess the same or better robustness than an Integrated chronograph.

And you forgot the lack of a quick set Date advance. Even the 134x series Lemania's top that even though that quick set mechanism leaves a GREAT DEAL to be desired.

georges zaslavsky said:
To insure you, I also have an appreciation for excelsior park chronographs, universal geneve, longines (cal 30ch and 13zn powered watches only), hanhart the vintage ones, minerva and vintage IWC watches.
You don't need to list them out. If you appreciate them, that's fine, if you don't that's your decision (and in some instances, loss).

georges zaslavsky said:
But well, everyone likes different things and taht what makes things interesting.
It would be a boring world if everyone shared the same views.

georges zaslavsky said:
thanks for making debates more enriching ;-)
It wasn't so much a debate as much as some things needed to be set straight... B-)

georges zaslavsky said:
regards

georges
And to you and yours!

-- Chuck
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
677 Posts
Eh...

Down Under Divers said:
with that one reply I've learnt more than I have being a member on this forum since February this year. Thanks for all the info :)
Eh, Let's just say I try to not waste people's time, and leave it at that.

Good Hunting!

-- Chuck
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,002 Posts
Re: Eh...

Good to see you here, Chuck. You are even allowed to say Ebay, no matter what color you use. I have some more 3303 info for you that I will email soon. Stay out of the alleys. ;-) Cheers, Bob
 
1 - 20 of 42 Posts
Top