[marc_wl]

Hi,

In the crashed pre-february 2006 version of this forum, we discussed one time the cited the collaborations / joint-ventures in the post-war period between the French Lip company and the Russian industry. I was a bit surprised however to see nothing related between a Lip and 2 Russian watches of the same 1956 circa : Lip R25, 1-MChZ Sportivnie 17 jewels and 2-MChZ Pobeba 15 jewels (this gallery).

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The cited ancestor of the Pobeda is the Lip R26 not the R25, but I was unable to find a convincing source of this caliber from the net. We even stayed very doubtful of the existence of the R26.

Since that time, I found a nicely documented web site from "Jef06" (may be member of WUS too? Congratulations then! :-!) describing interesting features of Lip watches.

It is said that the Lip R25 is a post-war modern caliber, the first Lip fully automated machined movement, concieved in 1948 by Jean-Georges Laviolette. More interesting is that the Lip R26 indeed exists and originates in 1918 !! :roll:

In a specific page devoted to the Lip-Russian joint ventures, there is a picture of the R26 linked here :

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that is to be compared to the early 2-MChZ Pobeda (1954) :

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If the phylogeny is right :think:, the Pobeda was deeply modified (the click, the train wheel, etc..) appearing to a real Russian new conception.

Other Lip-Russia concordances are more straightforward : the Lip T18 (tonneau caliber) and the Zvezda, or the Lip R40 - Zim.

Kind regards,

 

[Chascomm]

Great detective work :-! I think we're a lot closer to the truth now. But as you say, there's still a few questions regarding a couple of wheels that are arranged on different planes compared to the Lip.

 

[ill-phill]

Thanks for this:-! very interesting research


Phil

 

[michele]

Marc, thank you very much for the very useful work of research, and for keeping alive the interest for vintage pieces. :gold:gold:gold I will post a link in the Articles section.

The writer of that article made only one mistake - the Molnija is not a mysterious movement, because it is clearly derived from the Cortebert 618/620.

 

[pmwas]

I know this is a very old post, and I certainly would recieve a 'gold shovel' on our POlish MB for digging this out, but I have something for you.
I actually have shown this movement before, some time ago - it most likely (almost certainly) is a 1945 first series K26 from Penza. And once again, an R26 for comparison.

Clearly, K26 is not a clone, more like a dereviate. Telling by the similarity of K18 (Zvezda) and K26's parts, I believe K26 was designed after R26, but in a way to use some parts already made in Penza factory.
Of course, it's just my idea, and this would need further invertigations and simple comparisons, The arbors are clearly different, but I don't know what about the gears and ratios.
Two shots of super early K26 inside:

Now, the dial side of this super early K26 resembles R26 a lot by the overall layout and finish...

And now the most important picture:

This is the main plate of the 'prototype' K26 (left) compared to regular K26 (right).
Notice how much ich changed early, during initial production. The technology was very simplified. It's also less elegant, but who'd care

I find this very interesting, glad I've finally found the pictures (I don't have the movement anymore, sold it...)

 

[mroatman]

I know this is a very old post, and I certainly would recieve a 'gold shovel' on our POlish MB for digging this out, but I have something for you.
I actually have shown this movement before, some time ago - it most likely (almost certainly) is a 1945 first series K26 from Penza.

Very interesting, pmwas, thanks for sharing!

One point that's confusing to me: In a recent thread about an early K26 of my own (see here), Miro mentioned that the earliest 2602 movements should have a pallet fork and escape wheel made from brass. Mine does not, and I notice the example you show above doesn't either. Do you know why this might be?

 

[pmwas]

In general, yes, early K26 all seem to have brass escapement, unless modified.
This one is steel, but it's not polished. So maybe they made non polished steel escapements for the first (prototype? trial?) series.
The main plate is differently made, so maybe the steel escapement is correct as well.
I've never seen a K26 escapement finished like this anyway...

 

[pmwas]

Sorry, but editing does not work on this browser, maybe mod will merge the posts later...

I also thought maybe the escapement was plated, but I don't have this watch anymore and I'd not check anyway

Nice thread on old Pobeda watches. Here are the best I used to have, all 'Red 12':

I find the ChChZ big logo particularly interesting

 

[mroatman]

Here are the best I used to have, all 'Red 12':

Killer lineup!!

 

[schnurrp]

Yes, very nice, pmwas.

What watch movement are you using as your avatar, comrade?

 

[pmwas]

That's a creation by American imperialists, Elgin 10 size Frances Rubie grade.

One of the most sought-for ladies movements made in USA.

Lovely piece...