[wristwatchtrader]

I'm interested in hearing non-warranty repair/estimate experiences with LVMH/Tag Heuer. Chiefly, I'm interested in their blatant practice of providing take-it-or-leave-it "rebuild" estimates when you simply want something fixed on your watch.

To give a hypothetical example, you send your watch in for a new chrono pusher or maybe even a crown that you managed to damage. Next thing you know, they are providing a $1000+ estimate which calls for essentially every part except the bracelet and case to be replaced.

All this is fine and good, of course, as there is nothing wrong with them suggesting additional items that might be replaced, and naturally "suggestive sales" is a perfectly acceptable technique. After all, we experience this when we take our car to the dealer. The problem is that when we take our car to the dealer we can politely decline the extras with relatively little drama. With LVMH/Tag Heuer, however, they won't *touch* your watch unless you agree to the entire estimate!!

Yes, for those of you not familiar, that is their SOP. The idea is they want to "bring the watch back to Tag Heuer original specs" or something along those lines. In other words, they want to take your (now) used watch and turn it into a brand new watch again. Imagine if this was the scenario you faced every time you wanted to get your car fixed. Absurd.

They also use the line that they don't do "partial repairs."

And oh, by the way, if you just want to order parts and don't want to pay them to do the labor, good luck - not happening.

Right now they are being investigated in the EU for anti-trust practices, and I'm *shocked* that they've gotten away with these practices for as long as they have in the U.S.

I was told by K&H Watch Service (formerly an authorized TH Service Center, now bankrupt) that there is a class action lawsuit pending that involves anti-trust issues, but I have been unable to verify this. Perhaps they got it mixed up with the EU action.

Anyway, I'm surprised there isn't more about this topic on these boards, so I'm interested in hearing your stories, especially what happened if you tried to reject any of these extra services.

 

[drunken monkey]

Chiefly, I'm interested in their blatant practice of providing take-it-or-leave-it "rebuild" estimates when you simply want something fixed on your watch.

I suppose that means you don't care about stories where they just did what was asked for then.

There was a guy here who needed a crown/crown stem replacement and that was exactly what he got as part of the overhaul service on his out of warranty watch.
No extra costs charged for extra parts and labour of new crown/crown stem.
No extra work done beyond what is part of the overhaul.

By the way, not that you care but nearly all of the major Swiss watch companies (LVMH, Swatch, Richmont) and independents were being looked at, not just TAG Heuer/LVMH.

 

[Eeeb]

Out of warranty service is a difficult area for most vendors. Most people who send in watches to the vendor are generally less knowledgeable than most readers of this forum. Exactly what is wrong with their watch is something most folks just don't know.

I don't know for sure but I suspect most have set up a 'standardized' flow to handle out of warranty work and that flow is basically a 'full service'. Such a service makes sure the watch that leaves is fully functional and in a good looking order. Many describe the returned watch to be 'as new'. Such service is easier to control from a production flow viewpoint. And it tends to reduce 'ship backs' which always loose money and customer credibility.

Personally I could not afford all my vintage watches if I could not take them to a local watchmaker who just does what I need. He knows me. Sometimes we argue over what needs to be done. But I usually take his guidance. This is called 'setting expectations' If I did not ask him to work on the chrono pushers and they stick, he knows I won't bring it back saying "now the chrono pushers stick... what did you do? They didn't do that before!" I just assume he and I never noticed it before. Most folks don't have that level of trust with a corporate crew in New Jersey...

But if you don't want the cosmetics of case polishing, et.al. you should be able to ask for that. But maybe they just don't want to work on a watch that needs a lot of cosmetic work. I don't know... anyone ever heard anything definitive?

 

[Wisconsin Proud]

Check Rolex' policy you'll find the same.

Great second post!!

 

[bmwfreak]

I sent in a vintage Formula 1 to have the plastic bezel replaced. They wanted to do a full maintenance including installing a new quartz movement and new crown, etc. The quote was about $160. That is more than the value of the watch, so I declined.

 

[underpar]

The OP is not crazy. Rolex has been doing this forever and recently Breitling has started the practice. I've recently been burned by the BUSA 'back to factory standards' routine and it is straight up robbery. I've heard 2 cases recently of Tag pulling these practices but hoped they were false.

 

[wristwatchtrader]

I really don't understand the logic of anyone who would defend this practice. Let's go back to the car example. Are you going to put up with such practices when you take your car to the dealer to fix *one* issue?

If your local Toyota dealer tried this, and they closed their parts department to the general public, do you honestly think they could get away with that?

One poster responded that a customer got their watch back and it "looked new." Well yeah, duh - that's my entire point - the guy probably spent $1k+ replacing 80% of the parts so it better look new because 80% of it is!

Yes, I agree that it's not just Tag/LVMH, but a good chunk of the high end watch industry. That makes the practice a *bigger* problem. Now you can't even just boycott Tag because the entire industry is in on the fix.

One thing that's interesting is that Omega makes their parts available in the U.S. thru Otto Frei, so it's at least *possible* to get their parts. As such, I have no problem with Omega whatsoever as anything they might do in their service center would be "suggestive" only since you always retain the option of ordering parts and having a local qualified watchmaker perform the service.

Some will take exception and argue that anyone not employed by Tag/LVMH isn't really "qualified", but the alternative would be using (horrors) *aftermarket* parts, which is a much worse outcome. Again, let's just look to the automotive industry, or frankly almost *any* industry other than the watch industry, to understand how crazy this practice is.

 

[wristwatchtrader]

Actually, I would *love* to hear stories about watches sent to LVMH that had *one* item fixed with no extras. That would be far more extraordinary. By the way, the example you cited doesn't count since it was part of an "overhaul." Okay, so they charged $400+ for an overhaul and threw in a "free" $30 crown - how generous.

Just for grins, I'm going to take a brand new watch, remove the crown and send it in for a new crown. Let's see if I can get *just* the crown replaced without a lot of extra drama. I'm betting it can't be done.

 

[drunken monkey]

The car/watch comparison is absurd.

Not repairing a faulty part in a watch movement could lead to catastrophic failure of the movement.
The same cannot be said for a car.

As some have said, a watch usually works fine until it goes wrong and then when it goes wrong, it goes very, very wrong.

Before I go further into this; I ask again why you post this here mentioning specifically TAG Heuer/LVMH.
Secondly, what are your own experiences of this?

Just for grins, I'm going to take a brand new watch, remove the crown and send it in for a new crown. Let's see if I can get *just* the crown replaced without a lot of extra drama. I'm betting it can't be done.

great idea.
what you need to get a fair appraisal of the services offered across the board is to go buy a Rolex, Omega, TAG Heuer, IWC, JLC and a Tissot.
To make it more in depth, you'd also need to get, in the cases where applicable, an example of an in-house movement and a bought in movement to see if that makes a difference to.

Let us know how you get on.

 

[bmwfreak]

I sent a Hamilton automatic watch to Omega service in New Jersey USA to repair a stripped crown. It was out of warranty. They fixed the problem by replacing the entire middle case. They did not simply replace the case tube. I suppose it's much easier for them to replace the complete part rather than fix it, similar to replacing a complete brake caliper rather than rebuilding it. Makes sense to me. They did NOT try to sell me a movement service, but I specifically wrote the watch was running fine and did not require a movement service and I only wished to have the crown fixed. I believe they quoted me $110 for the crown service. After about 6 weeks the watch was returned, the main crown was fixed, but there were other "new" problems. The internal bezel did not rotate properly and the movement seemed to be slightly loose in the watch case. I called them immediately and described the "new" problems. They had me send the watch back and finally made good and returned my watch within a few weeks.

 

[wristwatchtrader]

The car/watch comparison is absurd.

Not repairing a faulty part in a watch movement could lead to catastrophic failure of the movement.
The same cannot be said for a car.

As some have said, a watch usually works fine until it goes wrong and then when it goes wrong, it goes very, very wrong.

Before I go further into this; I ask again why you post this here mentioning specifically TAG Heuer/LVMH.
Secondly, what are your own experiences of this?

Okay, let's try this another way - you take your car into the dealership to replace a burned out headlamp, and they insist that you must have your oil changed also, or else they aren't even going to touch your headlamp. Only I'm being generous in using an oil change as the example - more like engine overhaul!

Even if I was in agreement with your argument, ultimately it should be the consumer's choice. This happens all the time in a car dealership's service department. You bring it in, and they warn you that you need to have XYZ service done or you might have more expensive problems down the line. Then it's up to you to decide whether you want to spend the money now, or take your chances down the road.

My personal experience? Okay, let's try this one on for size - I send a watch in for a missing pusher. They want to overhaul the movement, replace all gaskets, dial, hands, crown, tube, etc. It's actually easier to list what *won't* be replaced - the bracelet, case/back/bezel and um, that's pretty much it. Technically the movement won't be "replaced", but they might as well given what the overhaul would cost. Yes, I know a 7750 is expensive to overhaul. However, I'm pretty sure I could send them a watch that was overhauled 2 weeks ago by a local watchmaker and they would still insist on overhauling it again. They want to overhaul every watch they see.

Again, I'm sure Tag/LVMH isn't the only one doing this, but it just so happens that they are the ones I have had repeated personal experiences with over a number of years and several different watches, plus K&H specifically told me the "lay of the land" as it pertains to "bringing the watch back to factory specs" which translates to replacing half the parts on the watch.

The funny thing is that even if I send them a new watch their "basic service" is $200, so even if I can talk them out of the overhaul they are still going to charge $200 before we even start talking about the actual problem that needs to get fixed. Now, I would defend their right to charge whatever rates they wanted to charge IF they would make their parts available to the general public and/or independent watchmakers. In my opinion it's fundamentally unfair to monopolize the parts supply, then take advantage of that monopoly to charge whatever rates you want to charge.

 

[jermyzy]

All I can say is I sent my Zenith Defy back to LVMH Canada three times for warranty work. Each time, it came back with a new problem. After the third time, I took it to my local watchmaker instead.

 

[Eeeb]

...In my opinion it's fundamentally unfair to monopolize the parts supply, then take advantage of that monopoly to charge whatever rates you want to charge.

I agree with you premise about monopolies... that is why economic power is often regulated by government.

In Switzerland it is not illegal to have monopolies or cartels that 'rationalize' industries. In the US it is (but you have to convince the authorities to take action).

But given the 'no regulation is best' atmosphere in much of the world, I don't think we can expect any legal relief. Indeed, in the car industry vendors are now restricting access to diagnostic equipment so only dealers can use all the features of the onboard computers to diagnose and repair cars. A number of independent repair trade groups have been trying to get legislation prohibiting this practice... so far no state has even considered their proposed law seriously.

In other words, yes it is rotten. LMVH is not the only one doing it. It will probably get worse in the future, especially with Swatch forcing folks into in-house movements.

Aaaaaaarrrrggg!!!

 

[drunken monkey]

I send a watch in for a missing pusher. They want to overhaul the movement, replace all gaskets, dial, hands, crown, tube, etc. It's actually easier to list what *won't* be replaced - the bracelet, case/back/bezel and um, that's pretty much it. Technically the movement won't be "replaced", but they might as well given what the overhaul would cost.

Now that you explain what you are talking about I can begin to understand where you are coming from.

You see, I am aware of the fragility of watch movements (having previously buggered one up by dropping it) so in my mind, if my watch goes in for a routine check up and "overhaul" (itself just a bit of a clean and oil) and they notice something is amiss in the movement that requires some attention, I wouldn't mind as it should hopefully mean that I will be trouble free afterwards and have that extended warranty on the (factory) work.

However, I should point out that in your example, none of the work you mention is actually to do with the movement bar the overhaul, which I mention earlier is really just a bit of a clean and an oil. Also, as far as I'm aware, that should actually include the gasket changes as it involves opening the watch.
But as you mention, the extra work they said needed to be done are extras on the external parts of the watch and in this respect, yes, I agree with you as it is unneccesary work.

As for the control of parts availability.
I'm not sure where I stand on this.
On the one hand, I can see that it would be nice for parts to be available to the public, I can also see how accessibility can be very easily abused.
I recall reading somewhere that part of the reason why they (the watch manufacturers) don't like to supply the public is because they don't actually want third parties to work on the watches. The reasoning is something along the lines that they get too many watches sent to them where some third part has worked on the watch, didn't know what they were doing and had subsequently broken the watch and in turn, they had simply blamed the watch or some unfixable fault.

 

[wristwatchtrader]

Now that you explain what you are talking about I can begin to understand where you are coming from.

As for the control of parts availability.
I'm not sure where I stand on this.
On the one hand, I can see that it would be nice for parts to be available to the public, I can also see how accessibility can be very easily abused.
I recall reading somewhere that part of the reason why they (the watch manufacturers) don't like to supply the public is because they don't actually want third parties to work on the watches. The reasoning is something along the lines that they get too many watches sent to them where some third part has worked on the watch, didn't know what they were doing and had subsequently broken the watch and in turn, they had simply blamed the watch or some unfixable fault.

Yes, sorry if I wasn't clear in the original post.

I completely agree there are many jewelers who do not know what they are doing. I see examples of it every day. However, most of the issues I see are the *result* of OEM parts not being available, as a jeweler is forced to use an inappropriate aftermarket part. From where I sit, this policy *compounds* the problem, rather than mitigating it.

By the way, I've also been told things that are flat out false, such as that the chrono pusher is "attached" to the movement, so therefore they must work on the movement as well. This may be true in certain vintage pieces, but not the modern Tags I typically work with.

So here's my thing - if I specialize in Tag Heuer, have a large inventory of spare parts, lots of knowledge about how to fix them, etc. etc. and I'm getting stuck every once in a while, what is happening to the typical end-user who just wants something fixed on his watch? I can work around 95% of it, but the general public is really just SOL.

 

[nakedjohnny]

I think I'll be taking my TAG to a watchmaker when the service is needed...

 

[drunken monkey]

well, I know a watchmaker near me that is an authorised TAG Heuer service centre.

 

[calibre 11]

I sent in a vintage Formula 1 to have the plastic bezel replaced. They wanted to do a full maintenance including installing a new quartz movement and new crown, etc. The quote was about $160. That is more than the value of the watch, so I declined.

$160 sounds like a bargain for the work they were going to do, doesn't it? Whether it was worth it relative to the value of the watch is a different matter.

dc

 

[bmwfreak]

$160 sounds like a bargain for the work they were going to do, doesn't it? Whether it was worth it relative to the value of the watch is a different matter.

dc

I sent in a vintage Formula 1 to have the plastic bezel replaced. They wanted to do a full maintenance including installing a new quartz movement and new crown, etc. The quote was about $160. That is more than the value of the watch, so I declined.

That $160 did not include the bezel, just the maintenance. I suppose my point is that the watch really only needed a new bezel. The movement worked fine, but they would not replace the bezel without doing a complete maintenance on a 20+ year old quartz watch.

 

[tpd80]

I think I'll be taking my TAG to a watchmaker when the service is needed...

I couldnt agree more. Unless you need specific tag parts that only tag provides why send it to the service center. You wait a long period of time and you pay much more.

I also tend to think you may get better service locally. You can find out how many years the watch maker has been in the business vs the Tag service center your watch may get stuck with the "new guy" or "trainee". The watch maker knows your coming back to his store so he may take that extra care. At the Tag service center they'll never see you and if they scratch your dial or bezel they are less likly to care. Instead of sending it back and waiting another 6-8 weeks most customers will just eat it maybe complain a little on WUS but thats about it.