WatchUSeek Watch Forums banner
21 - 40 of 102 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,115 Posts
"Edouard Heuer came up with the oscillating pinion in 1887," other interesting items to read from the link that wilfreb posted, maybe seiko copied some of Heuer's older material ?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
18,180 Posts
After a movement's patents expire, it is common for other companies to start making new versions based on the old movement (assuming it was a decent design in the first place). Usually they add improvements in the process.

This has been going on for years. It is a normal course of business in the watch industry. Sometimes they acknowledge where the basis of their design came from. Sometimes they don't.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
57 Posts
Hi,

Please, take a quick look at the visible part at the lower righht corner. See the springs, the way they interact, their shape. See the positions of the wheels. See the magic lever. See the column wheel. See the parts surrounding it. See the exploded view. No way pal, this is basically the SAME movement.

Tag produces the plates and bridges. It is normal that the number of jewels is different ! The press release itself says that Tag only produces plates and bridges, nothing else.

Also, I'm not sure that the pinion is in the original Seiko movement. And nothing's easier than adding parts, since each screw, each spring, adds additional parts. For instance, the small plate enclosing the counter stone on the escape wheel: Its presence adds immediately 4 or 5 parts !!

There's more than coincidence between these 2 movements. And the description of the "HER" by TAG, pretending THEY invented it, and that Seiko copied them, is by itself shocking ! When you know that the Magic Lever has been around for 35 years...

Anyway, we'll see what TAG say on monday, if they'll simply deny it, or if they'll say there was a "partnership" with Seiko.

Anyway, it sure is a nice movement. But it is NOT the 100% TAG caliber they pretend it is !

BB


the Seiko 6S37 movement is 40 jewels and the tag 1887 is 39 jewel movement,the 1887 has 320 working parts and the Seiko 6s37 has 290 parts, other items are different also, in a watch case you can only have so many gears, wheels and springs before you run out of space, a watch keeps time so it is common for movements to look similar, but be different.
 
  • Like
Reactions: INTP-T

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,115 Posts
the article said that Tag is building the main plate and bridges and oscillating weight plate and the rest would be made at Nivarox a leading swiss company that makes watch parts.
 

·
Moderator
Joined
·
3,261 Posts
it really does not depreciate any for me when something is done elsewhere, if done under strict design and control of the company. the Macs and iPhone are made in China, and LOTS of Mercedes-Benz parts are not made in-house.

I know the watch industry may relate to this differently... but this is my opinion.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
57 Posts
Hi,

In fact, Nivarox is only building the balance spring, nothing else.

And of course, it doesn't bother if some parts are built somewhere else. The problem is, the DESIGN of this movement is by SEIKO. not TAG HEUER. This is exactely the opposite to what they pretend on their press releases. And in Switzerland, no big company ever has produced mechanical watches using japanese ebauches... until today.

BB
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,115 Posts
Does nayone know the subdial layout for this movement? 12-6-9 or 3-6-9?
i was wondering the same, i dont know on that.
check out this pic of the eta column wheel chrono movement
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
18,180 Posts
...And in Switzerland, no big company ever has produced mechanical watches using japanese ebauches... until today.

BB
Strickly speaking, it has not yet happened. The ebauche (base) and the rest of the watch is all made in Switzerland.

I suspect the PR department had no knowledge of the basis of this movement... or they are naive and think they can get away with base deception.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
57 Posts

·
Moderator
Joined
·
3,261 Posts
and now... having an in-house copy is something good ? honestly, I got a bit confused on a set opinion...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,894 Posts
''We then crossed a period of shortage of chronograph movements and to gain some independence on this point, we chose to modify and optimize an already existing class. "

this isn't bad at all, this movt is meant to be a mass produced and easy to service movt, so i guess they made the right choice.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
29 Posts
i doubt a brand like TagHeuer could copy a Seiko movt, lets see how does this goes.
Hi, I'm J.C. Babin the CEO of TAG Heuer, and YES, the new Caliber 1887 is based on a SII TC78 platform developped and patented in 1997 (filing) and eversince produced in very limited quantities for Junghans and Seiko watches in Japan. The caliber we propose and announced last week in London is a major evolution of this platform as even if the overall construction may look similar at first glance, the TAG Heuer movement is much different in terms of components, size and eventually performances, not to mention it's manufactured in Switzerland in TAG Heuer workshops of Cornol (Cortech - a company owned by TAG Heuer and already producing TAG Heuer and Zenith cases) and La Chaux-de-Fonds (where we have also the HQs and where we added 30.000 sq feet more last year for movements assembling and other manufacturig projects).
- Dimensions: it's broader (29.3 mm vs 28 mm) and thinner (7.13 mm vs 7.27 mm)
- Therefore the plate, bridges and oscillating mass have been significantly modified to allow this evolution
- Its assortment is a swiss asortment specifically developped by Nivarox and allowing to improve further accuracy and shocks resistancy
- New assortment centring of the balance wheel also specifically developped by KIF, a leading swiss expert company in balance wheels centrings
- Change and development of a new swiss engineered canon pinion to increase time-setting overtime reliability
- Redesign of the fixing of ball bearings of the mass to contribute reducing the thickness
- Adjustements to pass the famous "60 TAG Heuer torture tests" in terms of accuracy, reliability, thermical and physical shocks resistancy, chemical agressions etc....
We have today already 45 TAG Heuer people working full time on that project in Switzerland and work with 21 other suppliers for additional parts, most being swiss. Total investment is several tenth of mio USD.
I would therefore quality that movement as really in-house and manufactured by TAG Heuer even though the original IP has been acquired from SII. Please note that the original SII Caliber has always been praised by watches experts.
I hope I answer your questions as well as our fellow Watchuseek lovers !!!
Good evening - JCB
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
29 Posts
Re: in house caliber or another company's IP?

Hi, I'm J.C. Babin the CEO of TAG Heuer, and YES, the new Caliber 1887 is based on a SII (Seiko Instruments Inc.) TC78 platform developped and patented in 1997 (filing) and eversince produced in very limited quantities, apparently for Junghans and Seiko watches in Japan. The caliber we propose and announced last week in London is a major evolution of this platform even though I aknowledge that the overall construction may look similar at first glance. However, the TAG Heuer movement is much different in terms of components, size and eventually performances, not to mention it is manufactured (all its key components including plate, bridges, assortment, cannon pinion, eccentrics etc....) in Switzerland in TAG Heuer workshops of Cornol (Cortech - a company owned by TAG Heuer and already producing TAG Heuer and Zenith cases) and La Chaux-de-Fonds (where we have also the HQs and where we added 30.000 sq feet more last year for movements assembling and other manufacturig projects) as well as from "best in class" partners such as Nivarox.
- Dimensions: it's broader (29.3 mm vs 28 mm) and thinner (7.13 mm vs 7.27 mm)
- Therefore the main plate, bridges - especially the chronograph bridge - and oscillating mass have been significantly modified to allow this evolution
- Its assortment is a swiss asortment specifically developped by Nivarox for TAG Heuer, and allowing to improve further accuracy and shocks resistancy
- New assortment centring of the balance wheel also specifically developped by KIF, a leading swiss expert company in balance wheels centrings
- Change and development of a new swiss engineered cannon pinion to increase time-setting overtime reliability
- Redesign of the fixing of ball bearings of the mass to contribute reducing the thickness
- Adjustements to pass the famous "60 TAG Heuer torture tests" in terms of accuracy, reliability, thermical and physical shocks resistancy, chemical agressions etc....
We have today already 45 TAG Heuer people working full time on that project in Switzerland and work with 21 other suppliers for additional parts, most being swiss. Total investment is several tenth of mio USD.
I would therefore qualify that movement as really in-house and manufactured by TAG Heuer even though, yes, the original IP has been acquired from SII. Please note that the original SII Caliber has always been praised by watches experts.
I hope I answer your questions as well as our fellow Watchuseek lovers !!!
Good evening - JCB
 

·
Moderator
Joined
·
3,261 Posts
Despite all the content of the previous post, I am honored to see two facts :

1- Our Forum reaching TAG Heuer HQs; and
2- Mr. Babin honorably posting his words here.

Thank you very much for the post. I am sure this is very appreciated by all members and fans.

Enrico De Paoli
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
29 Posts
Hi,

I have seen the pics, from both calibers. The column wheel, the levers, the springs, everything is strictly identical between the 2.

And the HER praised by Babin is just the Seiko Magic Lever system.

Sorry guys, but this is not just guessing. It's serious.

BB
Hi, I'm J.C. Babin the CEO of TAG Heuer, and YES, the new Caliber 1887 is based on a SII (Seiko Instruments Inc.) TC78 platform developped and patented in 1997 (filing) and eversince produced in very limited quantities, apparently for Junghans and Seiko watches in Japan. The caliber we propose and announced last week in London is a major evolution of this platform even though I aknowledge that the overall construction may look similar at first glance. However, the TAG Heuer movement is much different in terms of components, size and eventually performances, not to mention it is manufactured (all its key components including plate, bridges, assortment, cannon pinion, eccentrics etc....) in Switzerland in TAG Heuer workshops of Cornol (Cortech - a company owned by TAG Heuer and already producing TAG Heuer and Zenith cases) and La Chaux-de-Fonds (where we have also the HQs and where we added 30.000 sq feet more last year for movements assembling and other manufacturig projects) as well as from "best in class" partners such as Nivarox.
- Dimensions: it's broader (29.3 mm vs 28 mm) and thinner (7.13 mm vs 7.27 mm)
- Therefore the main plate, bridges - especially the chronograph bridge - and oscillating mass have been significantly modified to allow this evolution
- Its assortment is a swiss asortment specifically developped by Nivarox for TAG Heuer, and allowing to improve further accuracy and shocks resistancy
- New assortment centring of the balance wheel also specifically developped by KIF, a leading swiss expert company in balance wheels centrings
- Change and development of a new swiss engineered cannon pinion to increase time-setting overtime reliability
- Redesign of the fixing of ball bearings of the mass to contribute reducing the thickness
- Adjustements to pass the famous "60 TAG Heuer torture tests" in terms of accuracy, reliability, thermical and physical shocks resistancy, chemical agressions etc....
We have today already 45 TAG Heuer people working full time on that project in Switzerland and work with 21 other suppliers for additional parts, most being swiss. Total investment is several tenth of mio USD.
I would therefore qualify that movement as really in-house and manufactured by TAG Heuer even though, yes, the original IP has been acquired from SII. Please note that the original SII Caliber has always been praised by watches experts.
I hope I answer your questions as well as our fellow Watchuseek lovers !!!
Good evening - JCB
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
29 Posts
the Seiko 6S37 movement is 40 jewels and the tag 1887 is 39 jewel movement,the 1887 has 320 working parts and the Seiko 6s37 has 290 parts, other items are different also, in a watch case you can only have so many gears, wheels and springs before you run out of space, a watch keeps time so it is common for movements to look similar, but be different.
Hi H2Xmarks, I'm J.C. Babin the CEO of TAG Heuer, and YES, the new Caliber 1887 is based on a SII (Seiko Instruments Inc.) TC78 platform developped and patented in 1997 (filing) and eversince produced in very limited quantities, apparently for Junghans and Seiko watches in Japan. The caliber we propose and announced last week in London is a major evolution of this platform even though I aknowledge that the overall construction may look similar at first glance. However, the TAG Heuer movement is much different in terms of components, size and eventually performances, not to mention it is manufactured (all its key components including plate, bridges, assortment, cannon pinion, eccentrics etc....) in Switzerland in TAG Heuer workshops of Cornol (Cortech - a company owned by TAG Heuer and already producing TAG Heuer and Zenith cases) and La Chaux-de-Fonds (where we have also the HQs and where we added 30.000 sq feet more last year for movements assembling and other manufacturig projects) as well as from "best in class" partners such as Nivarox.
- Dimensions: it's broader (29.3 mm vs 28 mm) and thinner (7.13 mm vs 7.27 mm)
- Therefore the main plate, bridges - especially the chronograph bridge - and oscillating mass have been significantly modified to allow this evolution
- Its assortment is a swiss asortment specifically developped by Nivarox for TAG Heuer, and allowing to improve further accuracy and shocks resistancy
- New assortment centring of the balance wheel also specifically developped by KIF, a leading swiss expert company in balance wheels centrings
- Change and development of a new swiss engineered cannon pinion to increase time-setting overtime reliability
- Redesign of the fixing of ball bearings of the mass to contribute reducing the thickness
- Adjustements to pass the famous "60 TAG Heuer torture tests" in terms of accuracy, reliability, thermical and physical shocks resistancy, chemical agressions etc....
We have today already 45 TAG Heuer people working full time on that project in Switzerland and work with 21 other suppliers for additional parts, most being swiss. Total investment is several tenth of mio USD.
I would therefore qualify that movement as really in-house and manufactured by TAG Heuer even though, yes, the original IP has been acquired from SII. Please note that the original SII Caliber has always been praised by watches experts.
I hope I answer your questions as well as our fellow Watchuseek lovers !!!
Good evening - JCB
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
29 Posts
''We then crossed a period of shortage of chronograph movements and to gain some independence on this point, we chose to modify and optimize an already existing class. "

this isn't bad at all, this movt is meant to be a mass produced and easy to service movt, so i guess they made the right choice.
Hi, I'm J.C. Babin the CEO of TAG Heuer, and YES, the new Caliber 1887 is based on a SII (Seiko Instruments Inc.) TC78 platform developped and patented in 1997 (filing) and eversince produced in very limited quantities, apparently for Junghans and Seiko watches in Japan. The caliber we propose and announced last week in London is a major evolution of this platform even though I aknowledge that the overall construction may look similar at first glance. However, the TAG Heuer movement is much different in terms of components, size and eventually performances, not to mention it is manufactured (all its key components including plate, bridges, assortment, cannon pinion, eccentrics etc....) in Switzerland in TAG Heuer workshops of Cornol (Cortech - a company owned by TAG Heuer and already producing TAG Heuer and Zenith cases) and La Chaux-de-Fonds (where we have also the HQs and where we added 30.000 sq feet more last year for movements assembling and other manufacturig projects) as well as from "best in class" partners such as Nivarox.
- Dimensions: it's broader (29.3 mm vs 28 mm) and thinner (7.13 mm vs 7.27 mm)
- Therefore the main plate, bridges - especially the chronograph bridge - and oscillating mass have been significantly modified to allow this evolution
- Its assortment is a swiss asortment specifically developped by Nivarox for TAG Heuer, and allowing to improve further accuracy and shocks resistancy
- New assortment centring of the balance wheel also specifically developped by KIF, a leading swiss expert company in balance wheels centrings
- Change and development of a new swiss engineered cannon pinion to increase time-setting overtime reliability
- Redesign of the fixing of ball bearings of the mass to contribute reducing the thickness
- Adjustements to pass the famous "60 TAG Heuer torture tests" in terms of accuracy, reliability, thermical and physical shocks resistancy, chemical agressions etc....
We have today already 45 TAG Heuer people working full time on that project in Switzerland and work with 21 other suppliers for additional parts, most being swiss. Total investment is several tenth of mio USD.
I would therefore qualify that movement as really in-house and manufactured by TAG Heuer even though, yes, the original IP has been acquired from SII. Please note that the original SII Caliber has always been praised by watches experts.
I hope I answer your questions as well as our fellow Watchuseek lovers !!!
Good evening - JCB
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
29 Posts
Despite all the content of the previous post, I am honored to see two facts :

1- Our Forum reaching TAG Heuer HQs; and
2- Mr. Babin honorably posting his words here.

Thank you very much for the post. I am sure this is very appreciated by all members and fans.

Enrico De Paoli
Ciao Enrico, always a pleasure to share the evening with other watch lovers. And sincerely apologize if ever I created some confusion initially as it was never meant to be. Remember that in 1969 we did not do it alone either but with Breitling, Buren, Hamilton and Dubois-Depraz. When you want to produce high quality in significant volumes, capitalizing rather than re-inventing the wheel can be a smart idea especially if the outcome is a beautiful, reliable, performant, evolutive and versatile movement. And Caliber 1887 is that. For breakthrough it's another story,......but for everyone apparently, except maybe with TAG Heuer, but then through the V4 and unfortunately with.....only 150 masterpieces produced as we lack capacity for such a daring re-invention of a mechanical movement.
 
21 - 40 of 102 Posts
Top