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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi,

I bought this watch some time ago, see attached photos.
I bought it fully aware that it was a recased pocket watch, I didn't buy it for any reason other than I liked the look of it!
I love pocket watches, the size, movements, etc. But I'd never want to wear one, so the idea of one that's been recased as a wrist watch appealed. It's certainly different!

Anyway, the movement runs crazy fast, I've tried regulating it but it doesn't improve. I've even tried demagnetising it with no improvement.
It's been like that since it arrived in the post, so it's been sat in my watch box ever since...

As it's a mismatch of parts as it is, I think the easiest thing to do would be to replace the movement with a working one, that's preferably been serviced.

I've seen that there are some movements listed on eBay, but would anyone be able to identify the movement I have here?

Just thinking out loud, I think the case is stainless steel... I wonder if that could have an effect on the watch running fast.....?

Thank you.
 

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Please define crazy fast.
The movement is visible: ChK-6. This is an early Molniya before they started using caliber 3602.

Please look at the hair spring: any coils stuck together? Or touching each other or the bridge? Coils touching is the main reason for the ‘crazy fast’. The coils must be concentric. If the coils touching each other or periodically get stuck together it can be due the magnetism (that we can rule out based on your message) or due to the oil that got on them or due to the fact that the spring shape is distorted. Let us know what you see.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Please define crazy fast.
The movement is visible: ChK-6. This is an early Molniya before they started using caliber 3602.

Please look at the hair spring: any coils stuck together? Or touching each other or the bridge? Coils touching is the main reason for the ‘crazy fast’. The coils must be concentric. If the coils touching each other or periodically get stuck together it can be due the magnetism (that we can rule out based on your message) or due to the oil that got on them or due to the fact that the spring shape is distorted. Let us know what you see.
Hi, thank you for your message.
It's a very long time since I last tested it, and it's now wound up for testing again.
I recall it was gaining several minutes in a single hour and over half an hour over a day.

I have looked at the hairspring and it is in good shape. No coils touching etc. This was the first thing I checked when I discovered it running too fast.

When would this date from?

Thanks
Phil
 

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Another reason for the fast is low amplitude. I assume you do not have a timegrapher. Are you an iPhone or Android user? There are affordable apps that can measure the movement. If you like mechanical watches that is a good investment (15$ or so). But if you can afford 150$ for a timegrapher then it will be perfect. You do NOT need to be a watchmaster to be able to use it. It is a great tool to diagnose the issues. Once you know the issue you can decide how to proceed. Let me know if this is something you can consider and I can explain a bit more.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Another reason for the fast is low amplitude. I assume you do not have a timegrapher. Are you an iPhone or Android user? There are affordable apps that can measure the movement. If you like mechanical watches that is a good investment (15$ or so). But if you can afford 150$ for a timegrapher then it will be perfect. You do NOT need to be a watchmaster to be able to use it. It is a great tool to diagnose the issues. Once you know the issue you can decide how to proceed. Let me know if this is something you can consider and I can explain a bit more.
Thank you, I am very much into mechanical watches. I own dozens of Russian watches.

I am an Android user. Can you recommend a good app?
 

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Another reason for the fast is low amplitude. I assume you do not have a timegrapher. Are you an iPhone or Android user? There are affordable apps that can measure the movement. If you like mechanical watches that is a good investment (15$ or so). But if you can afford 150$ for a timegrapher then it will be perfect. You do NOT need to be a watchmaster to be able to use it. It is a great tool to diagnose the issues. Once you know the issue you can decide how to proceed. Let me know if this is something you can consider and I can explain a bit more.
Thank you, I am very much into mechanical watches. I own dozens of Russian watches.

I am an Android user. Can you recommend a good app?

I am an Apple guy but take a look here

https://www.watchuseek.com/member.php?u=1388919#/topics/4589613

Once you test the watch, post the results here. Amplitude and the Rate is what we need to see 1st.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Another reason for the fast is low amplitude. I assume you do not have a timegrapher. Are you an iPhone or Android user? There are affordable apps that can measure the movement. If you like mechanical watches that is a good investment (15$ or so). But if you can afford 150$ for a timegrapher then it will be perfect. You do NOT need to be a watchmaster to be able to use it. It is a great tool to diagnose the issues. Once you know the issue you can decide how to proceed. Let me know if this is something you can consider and I can explain a bit more.
Thank you, I am very much into mechanical watches. I own dozens of Russian watches.

I am an Android user. Can you recommend a good app?

I am an Apple guy but take a look here

https://www.watchuseek.com/member.php?u=1388919#/topics/4589613

Once you test the watch, post the results here. Amplitude and the Rate is what we need to see 1st.
Hi,
I've downloaded an app, is this what you were expecting to see?
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Kind of. Are you using Headphone’s mike?
Try setting target frequency to 18000 bph and see what you get. This balance moves at 18000. 300 is a pendulum on a wall clock.... way too slow
No, this is using the phone speaker.

That's 300 beats per minute? That's about right isn't it?
 

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Kind of. Are you using Headphone’s mike?
Try setting target frequency to 18000 bph and see what you get. This balance moves at 18000. 300 is a pendulum on a wall clock.... way too slow
No, this is using the phone speaker.

That's 300 beats per minute? That's about right isn't it?
People say headphone are better. Anyway, you are right. I thought it is per hour. So we can see 22min error. What is the position of the balance regulator? Can you move it towards the Y side and measure again? The bottom of the chart is not perfect (should be closer to the straight line) but lets see if we can get the rate closer to 0 (closer to 300 bpm).
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Kind of. Are you using Headphone’s mike?
Try setting target frequency to 18000 bph and see what you get. This balance moves at 18000. 300 is a pendulum on a wall clock.... way too slow
No, this is using the phone speaker.

That's 300 beats per minute? That's about right isn't it?
People say headphone are better. Anyway, you are right. I thought it is per hour. So we can see 22min error. What is the position of the balance regulator? Can you move it towards the Y side and measure again? The bottom of the chart is not perfect (should be closer to the straight line) but lets see if we can get the rate closer to 0 (closer to 300 bpm).
In the photo I attached you can see the regulator. It's more over towards a Cyrillic "n"
(Forgive my ignorance, it may be a "u")

I tried adjusting it before and it didn't make any difference to the time keeping.
I will try again though in the morning.
 

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Kind of. Are you using Headphone’s mike?
Try setting target frequency to 18000 bph and see what you get. This balance moves at 18000. 300 is a pendulum on a wall clock.... way too slow
No, this is using the phone speaker.

That's 300 beats per minute? That's about right isn't it?
People say headphone are better. Anyway, you are right. I thought it is per hour. So we can see 22min error. What is the position of the balance regulator? Can you move it towards the Y side and measure again? The bottom of the chart is not perfect (should be closer to the straight line) but lets see if we can get the rate closer to 0 (closer to 300 bpm).
In the photo I attached you can see the regulator. It's more over towards a Cyrillic "n"
(Forgive my ignorance, it may be a "u")

I tried adjusting it before and it didn't make any difference to the time keeping.
I will try again though in the morning.
П makes is faster
Y makes it slower. You want to move towards Y.
Now you can measure and see if the rate improves. No need to wait.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Kind of. Are you using Headphone’s mike?
Try setting target frequency to 18000 bph and see what you get. This balance moves at 18000. 300 is a pendulum on a wall clock.... way too slow

No, this is using the phone speaker.

That's 300 beats per minute? That's about right isn't it?
People say headphone are better. Anyway, you are right. I thought it is per hour. So we can see 22min error. What is the position of the balance regulator? Can you move it towards the Y side and measure again? The bottom of the chart is not perfect (should be closer to the straight line) but lets see if we can get the rate closer to 0 (closer to 300 bpm).
In the photo I attached you can see the regulator. It's more over towards a Cyrillic "n"
(Forgive my ignorance, it may be a "u")

I tried adjusting it before and it didn't make any difference to the time keeping.
I will try again though in the morning.
П makes is faster
Y makes it slower. You want to move towards Y.
Now you can measure and see if the rate improves. No need to wait.
Ok,
I have had another play.
With the watch facing down, I can regulate it within one minute... Quite good I think for a pocket watch.

However when it is face up, it speeds up dramatically.

Any other clues?!

The -44 seconds is face down. +29 minutes is face up....
 

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See how we are now making a progress. Lol.
3 things come to mind: broken 1 pivot on the balance, dirty jewel or the hair spring is touching the bridge. It is 99% balance related. Such a big difference has to be due the balance. Lets examine things:

1) broken pivot. Usually the watch would stop face up (or down depending which one is broken) while running in the other position. But lets check. Very gently try to rock the balance up and down with a toothpick. Gently!!!! There should be a very minimal play. If the play is 2-3 mms then the pivot is broken. But given your watch works both ways I do not think this Is the case.

2) try to record in slow motion the balance face down and face up. I know, this is hard. You may want to lat down or something. We are looking for 2 things: do you see the amplitude dropping? Lets say face down the balance rotates 200 degrees and face up only 100.
Also we are looking to see if the spring, by its weight descending to the bridge, starts rubbing against it.

You may not be able to fix any of the above but I hope you are enjoying this quest....
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
See how we are now making a progress. Lol.
3 things come to mind: broken 1 pivot on the balance, dirty jewel or the hair spring is touching the bridge. It is 99% balance related. Such a big difference has to be due the balance. Lets examine things:

1) broken pivot. Usually the watch would stop face up (or down depending which one is broken) while running in the other position. But lets check. Very gently try to rock the balance up and down with a toothpick. Gently!!!! There should be a very minimal play. If the play is 2-3 mms then the pivot is broken. But given your watch works both ways I do not think this Is the case.

2) try to record in slow motion the balance face down and face up. I know, this is hard. You may want to lat down or something. We are looking for 2 things: do you see the amplitude dropping? Lets say face down the balance rotates 200 degrees and face up only 100.
Also we are looking to see if the spring, by its weight descending to the bridge, starts rubbing against it.

You may not be able to fix any of the above but I hope you are enjoying this quest....
Hello,

Thank you for your help!
There is play, certainly not mm's though.

I've recorded in slow motion, but, unfortunately I cannot attach videos here.

I can clearly see from the slow motion video that with the watch face up, the balance rocks about 110 degrees but with the watch facing down, 270 degrees....
 

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Obviously it takes much less time to rotate 110 degrees than 270. Hence the oscillation is more frequent and the watch is running fast. Question is why. Do you see the spring rubbing the bridge? Another reason would be a badly used pivot that the balance sits on face up. Trying to source a donor (a watch in bad state with a healthy balance) maybe an option. Depending on your skills and willingness to break things we can close this thread or continue.... But at least I think we have diagnosed the issue somewhat.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Obviously it takes much less time to rotate 110 degrees than 270. Hence the oscillation is more frequent and the watch is running fast. Question is why. Do you see the spring rubbing the bridge? Another reason would be a badly used pivot that the balance sits on face up. Trying to source a donor (a watch in bad state with a healthy balance) maybe an option. Depending on your skills and willingness to break things we can close this thread or continue.... But at least I think we have diagnosed the issue somewhat.

I don't mind taking the balance out and having a look at it.
I've done it before with old Victorian English watches...
If it may need a new balance anyway, I've not got much to lose.

But, assuming this goes all horribly wrong, is there a more common, low cost movement that will fit in its place without any modification?
 

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Obviously it takes much less time to rotate 110 degrees than 270. Hence the oscillation is more frequent and the watch is running fast. Question is why. Do you see the spring rubbing the bridge? Another reason would be a badly used pivot that the balance sits on face up. Trying to source a donor (a watch in bad state with a healthy balance) maybe an option. Depending on your skills and willingness to break things we can close this thread or continue.... But at least I think we have diagnosed the issue somewhat.

I don't mind taking the balance out and having a look at it.
I've done it before with old Victorian English watches...
If it may need a new balance anyway, I've not got much to lose.

But, assuming this goes all horribly wrong, is there a more common, low cost movement that will fit in its place without any modification?
Great. Can you take the balance out and put it in, lets say, gasoline? Using Zippo lighter fluid works great. If you have better watchmaker washing solution great. If not, buy Zippo fluid. Soak the balance for 2 h in it. Dry it and put it back. If there was some solidified oil in the jewel it will be washed away. If you have oil we can discuss oiling but even w/o it the watch will work better than with the bad oil. Also take some photos of the balance and pivots and jewel if you can.

As far as replacing: not sure. I never tried to use the balance from a different Molniya like 3602. Maybe. Maybe not. Probably not going to fit.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Obviously it takes much less time to rotate 110 degrees than 270. Hence the oscillation is more frequent and the watch is running fast. Question is why. Do you see the spring rubbing the bridge? Another reason would be a badly used pivot that the balance sits on face up. Trying to source a donor (a watch in bad state with a healthy balance) maybe an option. Depending on your skills and willingness to break things we can close this thread or continue.... But at least I think we have diagnosed the issue somewhat.

I don't mind taking the balance out and having a look at it.
I've done it before with old Victorian English watches...
If it may need a new balance anyway, I've not got much to lose.

But, assuming this goes all horribly wrong, is there a more common, low cost movement that will fit in its place without any modification?
Great. Can you take the balance out and put it in, lets say, gasoline? Using Zippo lighter fluid works great. If you have better watchmaker washing solution great. If not, buy Zippo fluid. Soak the balance for 2 h in it. Dry it and put it back. If there was some solidified oil in the jewel it will be washed away. If you have oil we can discuss oiling but even w/o it the watch will work better than with the bad oil. Also take some photos of the balance and pivots and jewel if you can.

Hopefully you can see that...
To me, it looks like there is some grime on the spring. I cannot see it just by eye and I don't have a magnifying glass.
Just by zooming in on the picture through my phone it looks like something is on the spring.

It's currently sat in a pot in Zippo lighter fluid..
Do I need to submerge it?
How would you recommend drying it?

I don't have any watch oil.
 

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