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Hello everyone,

This is my first post, so, first of all, congratulations for creating and keeping this extremely interesting forum going.

I start familiarising myself with the fascinating and passionate world of horlogerie and for my first real watch I am between:


- Zenith El Primero 36.000 VPH 42mm - Ref: 03.2041.400/51.C496


- Breitling Transocean Chronograph 43mm - Ref: AB015212/BA99/743P


- Omega Speedmaster Moonwatch Co-Axial Chronograph 44.25mm - Ref:
311.33.44.51.01.001​




Could you, please, help me with a comparison of their movements (also mentioned in the title)?

Thank you a lot.

Kind regards
 

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I'm sorry..I got nothing!
I'm not sure what you want on the technical level.
I just thought it deserved some bump up...Maybe someone will come along with the tech. info. you need.
Good luck.
 
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Are you just buying the movement or you will be getting a case as well?

In case you are buying the whole watch...

Speedy is the safe choice and most recommended on WUS. 3750 that is. It will also be cheaper.
El Primero. Great movement but some of the packaging is questionable. However, the Captain is quite stunning.

Breitling does not get much love around here. The 01 Transocean Chrono is one of their best new designs. I would probably get the Navi 01 though. I forgot to mention that I like Breitling. Oh and BTW it will cost you double the price of the Speedy.
 

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Easy... Co-axial


Cheaper to own! :)
 

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To me the overall look and build quality of the watch trumps everything. I'm no movement expert but here is my take. I look at the features a movement (in-house or not) gives you to deem good or better then another. In my estimation, the B01 and 9300 give you a bit more then the El Primero. Here's a quick but not comprehensive breakdown

Accuracy: all three are = COSC specs
The odd feature of the El Primero is that despite a much higher beat rate, it doesn't hack so setting it can be problematic (maybe a Zenith owner can chime in).

Power Reserve: The B01 is a 70 hour stud. The 9300 is not to shabby at 60 hours. The El Primero only 50.

Innards: All three have important features of great chronographs, vertical coupling clutch, column wheel, silicone hairspring (Omega), continuous date change (Breitling), high jewel count (Zenith). Again I'm no expert but surely Zenith pioneered many of the essentials.

Sub Dial Layout: The 9300 looks nice with the bicompax look. The B01 is a traditional 3 subdial layout. The El Primero 3 subdial layout is an overlapping style. I can only assume its either a design feature or a reaction to larger cased watches. It's not my favorite look but many do love it.
Maybe a Zenith aficionado can give more input because I see all three as very good but Omega and Breitling a little better.
 

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I would get the 9300 based Omega Speedmaster. While the El Primero movement is an iconic one, it suffers from the fact that there isn't an iconic watch associated with the movement, except perhaps the Rolex Daytonas which used to contain the El Primero movement.
 

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To me, the Speedy to own is the iconic Speedy Pro not the coaxial. The reason Nasa chose the watch was for the way the robust movement performed in adverse conditions; swapping it for coaxial guts the whole heart and soul of the moon watch in my view, even if the coaxial movement is surely a great movement. The Speedy Pro would be worth a look. The El Primero would be the can't go wrong pick - legendary movement. The Breitling lacks the iconic heritage of the other two which I would expect to get at this price range.
 

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Innards: All three have important features of great chronographs, vertical coupling clutch, column wheel, silicone hairspring (Omega), continuous date change (Breitling), high jewel count (Zenith). Again I'm no expert but surely Zenith pioneered many of the essentials.
The El Primero does not have vertical friction coupling like the other two do. It is a standard horizontal clutch, which is inferior in all ways except for appearance. The vertical clutch of the other two results in less loss of beat amplitude when the chrono is engaged, meaning that using the chrono will affect the accuracy less. Furthermore, the chrono will start right when you push the button, instead of having a slight lag or jump in the second hand like the horizontal systems do. And finally, the vertical coupling system is more durable in the long run, because the horizontal clutch is rough on the gears. You can run a vertical coupled chrono constantly, which would cause undue wear on a standard chronograph.

Of the 3 movements, I think the 9300 is the best. It has a couple advantages the others do not; the silicon hairspring and balance wheel, coaxial escapement, and the free sprung design. The silicon parts are very durable and precise, and resistant to the effects of magnetism. The free sprung balance wheel eliminates wear in the regulator pins of non free sprung watches, and helps the isochronism of the watch (the watch's accuracy is less sensitive to the varying power in the mainsprings). The coaxial escapement reduces wear in the escapement by reducing sliding motion between components and converting it to pushing motion. This is a more durable design that is less sensitive to neglect. The 9300 movement also seems to have exhibited exceptional accuracy so far.

As for the other options, the El Primero is pretty impressive for its high beat rate, which is very rare in watches. The second hand thus runs smoother and can time in 1/10 second intervals. It was also the first automatic chronograph movement, so it has a bit of history to it. The downsides are the lack of hacking and horizontal clutch (the horizontal clutch is actually par for the course with auto chronos). The B01 has many hallmarks of a good chrono movement, but I don't think you can get it in a display back model very easily, so some of this is wasted. It does have the longest power reserve, though. However, one downside is that although it uses column wheel actuation, it seems that the pushers are typically rather stiff on the B01 chronos, which defeats the purpose of a column wheel pusher system.
 

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No question, If you are interested in the movement the only choice would be the El Primero. The Daytona is an Iconic Watch which used this movement. Panerai is another and Concord used it also. The EP has stood the test of time and has been my favorite movement forever. For a movement geek you can't beat it (pun intended) 36,000 bph and column wheel, it is a thing of beauty.
 

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it's pretty amazing how accurate my POC 9300 is; i probably reset it every 3 weeks and it's never been more than +5 seconds when i do so. then again, my only other point of comparison is a RW quartz chrono and a 3570.50 Speedmaster. i was told by a boutique rep a little while ago that Omega actually has more stringent specs than COSC and that they aim for -1/+6 (i don't remember 100% about the + part). i'm not sure if this was just marketing shill but from my experience, my POC 9300 has never been slow so that might be the case.

so if accuracy is a big part of your criteria, it seems like the 9300 movement just so slightly beats out the others. best advice, really, is to try on all three and pick the best one. a great movement is definitely important in choosing your watch, but keep in mind it's something you'll be wearing everyday. so make sure you like the look of it!
 

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No question, If you are interested in the movement the only choice would be the El Primero. The Daytona is an Iconic Watch which used this movement. Panerai is another and Concord used it also. The EP has stood the test of time and has been my favorite movement forever. For a movement geek you can't beat it (pun intended) 36,000 bph and column wheel, it is a thing of beauty.
If you are interested in history of the movement the only choice would be the El Primero. If you are interested in the features of the movement, the El Primero lacks in some ways compared to the others and only has the advantage of a high beat system. The other two do have column wheels as well. As for the high beat, it is quite nice and unusual to see in a watch. But Omega has very good reason to not use it in the 9300 caliber, as higher beat movements experience more wear and zap the power reserve faster. George Daniels, the inventor of the coaxial escapement Omega uses, determined that the ideal beat rate for his system to balance longevity with accuracy is lower than the 5Hz found in the EP.
 

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The El Primero does not have vertical friction coupling like the other two do. It is a standard horizontal clutch, which is inferior in all ways except for appearance. The vertical clutch of the other two results in less loss of beat amplitude when the chrono is engaged, meaning that using the chrono will affect the accuracy less. Furthermore, the chrono will start right when you push the button, instead of having a slight lag or jump in the second hand like the horizontal systems do. And finally, the vertical coupling system is more durable in the long run, because the horizontal clutch is rough on the gears. You can run a vertical coupled chrono constantly, which would cause undue wear on a standard chronograph.

Of the 3 movements, I think the 9300 is the best. It has a couple advantages the others do not; the silicon hairspring and balance wheel, coaxial escapement, and the free sprung design. The silicon parts are very durable and precise, and resistant to the effects of magnetism. The free sprung balance wheel eliminates wear in the regulator pins of non free sprung watches, and helps the isochronism of the watch (the watch's accuracy is less sensitive to the varying power in the mainsprings). The coaxial escapement reduces wear in the escapement by reducing sliding motion between components and converting it to pushing motion. This is a more durable design that is less sensitive to neglect. The 9300 movement also seems to have exhibited exceptional accuracy so far.

As for the other options, the El Primero is pretty impressive for its high beat rate, which is very rare in watches. The second hand thus runs smoother and can time in 1/10 second intervals. It was also the first automatic chronograph movement, so it has a bit of history to it. The downsides are the lack of hacking and horizontal clutch (the horizontal clutch is actually par for the course with auto chronos). The B01 has many hallmarks of a good chrono movement, but I don't think you can get it in a display back model very easily, so some of this is wasted. It does have the longest power reserve, though. However, one downside is that although it uses column wheel actuation, it seems that the pushers are typically rather stiff on the B01 chronos, which defeats the purpose of a column wheel pusher system.
I agree the 9300 is one of the best. You kind of a trade off different features with the B01. Power reserve vs upgraded materials, stiff pushers vs a thicker movement ect. ect...Both are nice upgrades for the money.
My fault on the clutch but to your point, the Zenith can be inferior here as well. Outside of decoration and history, I still wonder what makes the El Primero so great now a days.
 

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Outside of decoration and history, I still wonder what makes the El Primero so great now a days.
44 years of positive reputation, which sort-of undermines the claims of potentially high wear.

But don't underestimate the value of history when buying an anachronism.

Rick "who prefers the Zenith as a watch, and noting the Captain 03.2110.400 doesn't have overlapping subdials" Denney
 

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Personally, I wish Zenith devoted a little more effort to high beat 3 handers with central second hands. A seconds subdial looks pretty smooth at 4Hz, so the advantage of a high beat for the Zenith chronos is not very noticeable. (I am aware of the Espada, but I think it's a little ugly).
 

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Out of the three..I'll take the Zenith chronomaster.

Nothing aganist the 9300 but I am still having trouble overcoming the bi-subdial speedmaster design
 

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Breitling is not favored for a reason. Zenith el primero and Omega have true creation and quality.
 

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Breitling is not favored for a reason. Zenith el primero and Omega have true creation and quality.
I'd say that Breitling is every bit as capable as the other manufacturers of quality. But their movement is a compromise between classic and cutting edge, which draws fewer people than the tried and true EP or the ambitious 9300. Also, Breitling is willing to take some risks with their styling, which helps distinguish them from others, but puts off a lot of people at the same time. It comes down more to a matter of preference than one of quality. If you've ever tried one of Breitling's more touted bracelets you'd know what I mean.
 

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This is a little off point but I feel that Omega's Co Axial is solely a result of buying power.
Swatch's financial muscle managed to secure the escapement for Omega through no hard work or innovation of their own.
I personally wish that George Daniels had put in a fee such that he got paid everytime it was used by any manufacturer instead of selling it to Swatch.
I do really like the original Speedmaster, it's a great watch, in my opinion better looking than 99% of El Primeros.

Personally, movement wise, I would take the El Primero as it is the most historically accurate of the three(observatory competitions) and one of the most awarded movements in the history of watchmaking. Some of the other El Primero's in the range are pretty amazing, the striking 10th is a perfect example of how the higher beat is usefully better.

Considering that the El Primero is automatic I don't really think power reserve is a big deal. Over 2 days power reserve is more than enough for me.
 

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This is a little off point but I feel that Omega's Co Axial is solely a result of buying power.
Swatch's financial muscle managed to secure the escapement for Omega through no hard work or innovation of their own.
I personally wish that George Daniels had put in a fee such that he got paid everytime it was used by any manufacturer instead of selling it to Swatch.
I heard that it went down somewhat differently. He shopped his innovation to a few manufacturers, who turned it down, before he found an interested customer in Omega. Perhaps he did charge a hefty amount. In any case, we would live in a dark world if every manufacturer for every product was unwilling to use innovations that they didn't develop themselves. Do you really think that there's a single watch out there that doesn't rely on the innovations of others? I think Omega deserves respect for going out of their way to find ways to make their watches better, and taking on the challenge of adapting a feature intended for the highest pedigree of watches so that it could be used in a production piece. So yes, they did put in some effort of their own, and it's not like they stole the design from Daniels.
 

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I heard that it went down somewhat differently. He shopped his innovation to a few manufacturers, who turned it down, before he found an interested customer in Omega. Perhaps he did charge a hefty amount. In any case, we would live in a dark world if every manufacturer for every product was unwilling to use innovations that they didn't develop themselves. Do you really think that there's a single watch out there that doesn't rely on the innovations of others? I think Omega deserves respect for going out of their way to find ways to make their watches better, and taking on the challenge of adapting a feature intended for the highest pedigree of watches so that it could be used in a production piece. So yes, they did put in some effort of their own, and it's not like they stole the design from Daniels.
I think you misunderstood what I said a little.
I kind of agreed with you;

'I personally wish that George Daniels had put in a fee such that he got paid everytime it was used by any manufacturer instead of selling it to Swatch.'

My point was that it should've been a universal innovation, not one that just got bought and kept to a single brand.
 
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