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Discussion Starter #1
I'm interested in people's views on the different movements that Steinhart use, as for me is the heart and lungs of the watch and important to how I'd feel about the timepiece. For me a movement needs to be:
1. Accurate (cosc is nice... But for my needs accurate just means 'enough for daily use')
2. A bit 'blingy', by which I mean something to be proud of. As any engineer by training it is the intricacy and ingenuity of a mechanical movement that fascinates me.
3. Easy to live with long term, so reliable and cheap and easy to get serviced.

To my mind ETA movements score high enough (say 7/10) for 1 and 2, and their commonality means they score very high at 3.
I'm unsure on the soprod and st5 movements. The st5 is basically an ETA clone isn't it? So I probably score it about equal but the soprod....? Maybe technically superior but not so common.... Longevity is unknown and what about servicing?

What do others think is important and how do you view these movements?
 

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I think your requsite #3 trumps all. ETA fits that bill. ETA can also be blinged up with gold wheels and blue screws. All my ETA's run within +/- 5 seconds a day. Get them (ETA's) while you still can.
 

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I think it depends on the overall package as well - I picked up an auto nav b premium because of the sexy-ass display window for it's Soprod, whereas the ETA powered model has a solid case back.

My 2 cents on the Soprod
1. I've been pretty blown away so far... last 24hrs i've lost less than a second - the day before it was around 2 seconds
2. I think it looks good - blued screws, nice decoration, the gold rotor helps
3. Obviously I can't say much on this, but I've only heard good things
 

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I think the 'Steinhart ST5' is actually made by ETA, so not a clone but a variant of the 2824-2, primarily differing in decoration. Though I can be dead wrong here.

And here's the best comparison I found regarding the ETA and it's clones including some extreme close-ups on details.

Comparison: Sea-Gull ST2130, ETA 2824-2, Peacock SL3000 | Watch Guy

My 2 cents on the Soprod
1. I've been pretty blown away so far... last 24hrs i've lost less than a second - the day before it was around 2 seconds
Of my three automatics, my OVM with an ETA 2824-2 and my Parnis with a DG2813 chinese movement are both about as good in terms of keeping time, about +/-1 second a day (at most). My Orient Ray is about +/-5 seconds a day, often on the minus side.

In a year I think my ETA will still be keeping good time, my Orient too, but the Parnis/DG2813 not so good.
Though I can be dead wrong in this too... ;)
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I think your requsite #3 trumps all. ETA fits that bill. ETA can also be blinged up with gold wheels and blue screws. All my ETA's run within +/- 5 seconds a day. Get them (ETA's) while you still can.
I tend to agree. But I also agree with James. I love to see the movement. My OP has come about through helping a friend determine a 'proper watch' to buy as a present to himself and he too loves the sight of a movement. A display case back is a deal breaker/maker for him.
So I'm trying to determine the benefits and risks of the soprod in particular.... The premium nav-b in 44mm looks very appealing. He also likes the Marine watches with the display case backs
 

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I think the 'Steinhart ST5' is actually made by ETA, so not a clone but a variant of the 2824-2, primarily differing in decoration. Though I can be dead wrong here.
You are dead wrong ;) The ST5 is a 2824-2 clone that uses parts sourced entirely from non-ETA suppliers in Switzerland. The whole point of it was to have an in-house replacement to deal with the dwindling availability of 2824-2's. Unlike the Soprod A10, the ST5 is the same dimension as the 2824-2 so it can be substituted into the existing line without having to redesign or modify the cases. The Soprod is a higher calibre than both the ST5 and 2824-2 with higher grade finishing, better shock protection and enhanced regulation; hence the reason it's being used in the premium line.
 

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I mentioned the following before regarding the Soprod: it is almost certainly based on the Seiko 4L25 movement. It is not clear whether Soprod assembles it, or makes it itself based on the design, or receives ebauches from Seiko (the company did not return emails to a curious watchmaker). If you google you'll find pictures that demonstrate that the movements look identical, and associated discussions.
In practice, the interesting thing is that this relatively rare Seiko movement was used in a few Credor watches - Seiko's luxury brand, positioned next to and above Grand Seiko. Knowing the company's attention to detail, this means that it is likely a very, very good movement that you can trust to give many years of great performance.
Unless of course that you don't like the Japanese influence and rather prefer an all-Swiss movement. I consider Seiko's involvement as a quality. I would not hesitate buying a Seikoprod-powered watch.
 

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So I'm trying to determine the benefits and risks of the soprod in particular.... The premium nav-b in 44mm looks very appealing. He also likes the Marine watches with the display case backs
The benefits are you're getting a movement designed to compete against the higher calibre ETA 2892-2 which has a very good track record so far and keeps excellent time. The risk is that it's a relatively new movement that was a new design from the ground up so getting service at your local jeweller/watchmaker might be a little harder for the very common ETA 2824-2.
 

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So far I am not especially impressed with the ST-5. My O1V is running around 15 seconds slow. That said, I have a Speedmaster Automatic, which has a Valjoux 7750, and that is also around 15 seconds slow (possibly more), but it dates back to the late 90s and needs a service. The 2824-2 was quite reliable in my Debaufre Ocean 1... until it wasn't. Had it serviced but it still runs consistently slow. I wish my watches would run fast instead, but no matter what position I leave them in overnight they still run slow.

I'm (theoretically) taking delivery of a Stowa Flieger within the next week or so. That has the Top 2824-2 ebauche, so I'm curious to see how it performs.
 

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The benefits are you're getting a movement designed to compete against the higher calibre ETA 2892-2 which has a very good track record so far and keeps excellent time. The risk is that it's a relatively new movement that was a new design from the ground up so getting service at your local jeweller/watchmaker might be a little harder for the very common ETA 2824-2.

Referring to what I wrote in my post just above yours, I suspect that "from the ground up" is not true at all :)
It is true that it can be a drop in replacement for the 2892.

Again, I have no problem with the likely design source being Seiko. In fact I just ordered the superlume new Pilot with Soprod.

Borrowed pictures:
Soprod:
1390390d1392828033-who-makes-your-micro-image.jpg

Seiko/Credor:
img58007873.jpg

In short, the Soprod is anything but "from the ground up", yet I expect it to be very good nevertheless.
 

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That is without a doubt the same movement.

But I'm also not one to put something down for it's origins, Seiko and Orients have great mechanical movements and I also heard the Miyota 9015 was a seriously good movement.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
The benefits are you're getting a movement designed to compete against the higher calibre ETA 2892-2 which has a very good track record so far and keeps excellent time. The risk is that it's a relatively new movement that was a new design from the ground up so getting service at your local jeweller/watchmaker might be a little harder for the very common ETA 2824-2.
I tend to agree so need to explain this and let my friend decide if the better regulation and shock protection is more important than easier/cheaper servicing. although it seems to me Mr Dragon, you are correct and the photos show the same movement, so if it is a clone of a high end seiko then servicing is never going to be that hard...and after all...how many services actually need parts? most are probably a simple clean, lube and regulate. I'll try and spell that out without being bias....but I do rather like the fleiger and might just encourage him that way :eek:D
 

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Servicing is a one in 10 year thing, if that is a main concern when buying a watch in this price range, the buyer might be over thinking it... ;)
 

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I tend to agree so need to explain this and let my friend decide if the better regulation and shock protection is more important than easier/cheaper servicing. although it seems to me Mr Dragon, you are correct and the photos show the same movement, so if it is a clone of a high end seiko then servicing is never going to be that hard...and after all...how many services actually need parts? most are probably a simple clean, lube and regulate. I'll try and spell that out without being bias....but I do rather like the fleiger and might just encourage him that way :eek:D
Well, it is not a common Seiko movement. After all, how many Credors have you seen in the wild :)
In any case replacement parts should be easy to source from Soprod.

It is interesting that for a similar price, my just ordered premium superlume flieger will hav a higher grade Seiko-ish movement than one of my favourite Seikos in roughly the same price range: the Sumo which like the respected SARB series uses the satisfying 6R15 movement which is a lower beatrate movement compared to the Seikoprod.
So I am looking forward to my new flieger: beautiful great movement, a thinner case (one of my few criticisms of the "old" model), and that superlume 3D lettering. As a comparison, I believe that Lumtec "only" applies 15 layers of lume.

As an aside, this Seikoprod situation seems like a case of disingenious Swiss marketing, it reminds me of the Tag Heuer "inhouse" movement story that also turned out to be very much Seiko-based.
 
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