Volkswagen is considered "Premium" in Australia? Wow... Don't know what to do with that.Automotive analogies need to be used with caution, especially where geographic variations are evident. North America is not the only market in the world.
For example, here in Australia Lexus is a successful brand but it built quite slowly in the 1990s. Honda never bothered with Acura for this market and is now regarded as a premium brand in its own right. Mazda's premium Eunos label was an expensive failure, but Mazda's own reputation has improved steadily and is close to being a premium brand now. Nissan have made a couple of unsuccessful attempts to establish Infiniti over the past decades. Meanwhile Volkswagen ('people's car'!) is undeniably now a premium brand. I'm not sure what lessons I could draw from all that to apply to watch branding.
Sorry mate. I always forget the rest of the world is not US centric like us Yanks.Automotive analogies need to be used with caution, especially where geographic variations are evident. North America is not the only market in the world.
Sorry mate. I always forget the rest of the world is not US centric like us Yanks.
I was merely trying to give an example that across the board marketing effort doesn't usually yield very good results. In the case of Sea-gull, we have product range from low hundreds to upward to $100K. A bit too wide of a gap under one umbrella company, don't you think? Even Seiko, with a wider global distribution infrastructure has a hard time justifying prices of Grand Seiko in many countries. But we all know the quality difference of a GS vs entry level robot made Seiko 5.
I am no expert on marketing. But the fact remains that Sea-gull, although now a popular brand vs other Chinese makers. Could really focus on product improvement instead of just blindly copying stuff.
Like Romain, I was shocked to learn that VW is a luxury brand down in Australia. Very interesting indeed. Thanks for sharing that.
I agree to disagree.I don't believe that Seagull is blindly copying stuff when the 2824 and 2894 are all designs that have fallen to the public domain.
Outside of that, the ST16 and ST25 movements are really great. Especially the ST25, an original Seagull design that has a date pusher (similar to the valjoux 7753) and accommodations for a big date, moonphase, and power reserve complications. These two movements alone could carry the entire Seagull line, and we're seeing far more ST25s and far fewer ST2130s lately, indicating that Seagull is moving away from non-inhouse developed designs.
Very interesting, you mind elaborate what the rumours are about? Just in a nutshell of course, not in all detail.Unless consumers starts to demand all those popular reissues Sea-Gull has being making made be from original Chinese movements, and willing to pay prices in 7000 yuan range for them, I doubt it will happen. All of Sea-Gull's R&D is at high end stuff, and for mid to low end watches the average consumer would think being based off of a Swiss or Japanese movement is plus.
ST25 happened mainly because back then there was a fashion fad for open heart watches, so Sea-Gull jumped on it no because they wanted to create a original movement, but cause there is a fashion need that popular and public domain swiss or Japanese can't fill for them. Once the fad is over, there is no need to spent money on it, and we do a steady decline of ST25 movements in watches.
On top of that, there has murmurs of corruption at Seagull going around Chinese forums recently (interestingly the threads are locked, but not deleted, include ones on people's daily forum), allegedly from Seagull factory workers appealing directly to the central government to investigate. So we don't really know what's going on inside Seagull, making new movements could be the least of their concerns.
http://bbs1.people.com.cn/post/71/1/2/129719707.html
海鸥手表厂巨额国资遭恶狼分尸大贪污，假东郭能否让贪官骗过正义的追缴？_北京_天涯论坛
向北京呼唤！名企'天津海鸥表厂'大贪巨额国资案在天涯被工人揭发20个月怎就没人管_北京_天涯论坛
海鸥大贪案天涯揭发20个月无人管国资无人痛惜无人怜-2011愚公移山的博客-强国博客-人民网
手表厂，你大爷的！！！！_天津_天涯论坛
My Chinese language ability is limited. But it seems the posts talks about a seasoned whistleblower Sea-gull factory worker, with some 11 years of experience, is sick and tired of internal company corruption that ripped him off his company retirement fund. Like many old familiar VCM brands, Sea-gull was state own. There were high ranking state officials that teamed up with Hong Kong investors to privatize the company 2 years ago. Converting government funds into privately held stock and profited in the process. Millions of $ was exchanged, top level personals profited greatly, but the factory workers was short changed. An ongoing investigation.Very interesting, you mind elaborate what the rumours are about? Just in a nutshell of course, not in all detail.
@aratron: I agree on your idea that Sea Gull should eventually think about re-structuring their brand into several sub-brands, just as Seiko. Unless they will in the future only focus on a less broader market. Unfortunately, I would come up again with an automotive analogy, but this time stay at least within one manufacturer: VW-Group (with the brands: VW, Audi, Seat, Skoda, Porsche). Each sub-brand is somehow targeting specific customers or competitors, although a lot share basic items and developments but those cost are only paid when buying certain brands within the group.
Ah, I see, so business as usualMy Chinese language ability is limited. But it seems the posts talks about a seasoned whistleblower Sea-gull factory worker, with some 11 years of experience, is sick and tired of internal company corruption that ripped him off his company retirement fund. Like many old familiar VCM brands, Sea-gull was state own. There were high ranking state officials that teamed up with Hong Kong investors to privatize the company 2 years ago. Converting government funds into privately held stock and profited in the process. Millions of $ was exchanged, top level personals profited greatly, but the factory workers was short changed. An ongoing investigation.
Yeah, maybe my rant on Sea-gull movements is not appropriate now. With no actual R&D funding, internal corruption. Working on a new movement is the least of their concerns.
Yes, aratron's reading is basically correct. Also in the article Sea-Gull executive was quote saying that they are considering breaking the company into several brands and having high end turbillions be a separate company that makes boutique watches. The worker was saying it's another effort to funnel state assets into personal pockets of management since the new company will be joint ventures with outside funding and ownership. (basically the executive can have relatives setup shell companies overseas, play foreign investor and get the most profitable part of Sea-Gull at low prices.) Below are from a interview with a Sea-Gull executive back in 2012.@aratron: I agree on your idea that Sea Gull should eventually think about re-structuring their brand into several sub-brands, just as Seiko. Unless they will in the future only focus on a less broader market. Unfortunately, I would come up again with an automotive analogy, but this time stay at least within one manufacturer: VW-Group (with the brands: VW, Audi, Seat, Skoda, Porsche). Each sub-brand is somehow targeting specific customers or competitors, although a lot share basic items and developments but those cost are only paid when buying certain brands within the group.
My modified google translate与机芯的定价权相比，海鸥的品牌建设之路注定更加艰难。目前，国内的海鸥、北京、上海等本土手表厂都相继推出了自己的高端品牌，并且试图将科技和中 国文化联系在一起，让产品更具中国特色。"虽然包括海鸥在内的几大国有钟表企业都有了自己的制表大师和可以媲美瑞士的先进技术，但手表不仅仅是计时器，它 同时也是身份的象征。对于中国制表业来说，品牌的上升依旧艰难。"海鸥总经理办公室副主任刘克说。 今年6月8日，一项由对外经贸大学奢侈品研究中心针对2000名中国奢侈品消费者所做的调查显示，约68%的受访者认为中国尚未产生奢侈品牌。 在同等品质下，国人出高价买洋品牌已成了抬高身份的主流取向。"我们既有几百元的低档表，也有上百万的高档表。花几百块买了我们表的人知道我们有100多 万的表，肯定很开心；但反过来，花了100万在我们这里定制了高档表，回头发现还有200块的，那他就不开心了。"王志强说，在国内特殊的消费趋势下，海 鸥一直在为自己的品牌定位问题纠结，尽管一直想走入高端市场，但同时也不想放弃中低端市场。在这种情况下，分离出一个高档品牌似乎是一条可行之路。
"海鸥在计划着为厂里的这些大师定一个品牌。"除了杨作斌，海鸥的周文霞和另一位高级工程师赵国望也在2011年被评为中国机械表机芯设计大 师。"海鸥有一些大师级人物，我们想让他们像瑞士的那些独立制表人一样，推出一个品牌，那样他们的待遇也能改善，我们的品牌也能提高。"说到这里，王志强 的表情很是得意。
The Question is who will be those select "masters", and who will invest in those independent watch companies... And when the profitable part this gone, the rest of the company would crumble under the weight of pension cost, healthcare and housing that it must provide for the workers and ultimately end up bankrupt. (In some ways, this is exactly what happened to Shanghai Watch Company)Compared with the movement of the pricing, brand building of the road seagulls doomed more difficult. At present, the domestic seagulls, Beijing, Shanghai and other local watch factory have launched their own high-end brand, and trying to technology and Chinese culture together, make the product more Chinese characteristics. "Although including gulls, including several large state-owned enterprises have their own watches watchmakers in Switzerland and comparable to advanced technology, but the watch is not just a timer, it is also a status symbol for Chinese watchmaking industry, , the brand's rise still difficult. "Liu, deputy director of the General Manager's Office, said the seagulls.
June 8 this year, conducted by the Research Center for Foreign Trade University of luxury for the 2000 survey done by Chinese luxury consumers showed that about 68 percent of respondents believe that China has yet to produce luxury brands. Under the same quality, people pay through the nose to raise the status of foreign brands has become a mainstream approach. "We are both a few hundred dollars of low end watches, and know that we also make watch that sell for millions, and they are certainly very happy; but, in turn, when one spent millions on our custom high-end watchs, back found that our brand also has watches that sell for 200, and that he is not happy. "Johnny said that under special domestic consumption trends, Seagull has been the issue for their own brand positioning tangled, although always want to go into the high-end market, but also do not want to give up the low-end market. In this case, the separation of a premium brand seems to be a practical way.
"Seagull in the planning of these masters of the factory set a brand." In addition Yangzuo Bin, Zhou Wenxia seagulls and another senior engineer Wang Zhao also in 2011 was named the Chinese mechanical watch movement design guru. "Seagull has some masters, we want them to like those independent Swiss watchmakers, like the launch of a brand, so their compensation can also improve our brand can improve." Here, Johnny looked very is proud.
Weighing against all of that is the fact that manufacture of Sea-Gull's most successful lines of uncased movements for export is distributed across several major factories other than Tianjin, resulting in an output that accounts for a quarter of all the world's mechanical watch movements. The assembly and sale of Sea-Gull branded watches has always been the smaller part of the business....I am simply shocked how does Sea-gull still stay in business and still have any R&D. It is a miracle that it hasn't close its door yet. Sigh ~
Chascomm you are certainly right about Sea-gull's output of quarter of world's OEM movements. And I think this figure might even be higher now since the data dates to 2010~2011ish. However, the various issue that was raised in the article was still no less concerning. I initially came to the post believing that Sea-gull is a huge global company with a proper infrastructure for R&D and future growth road map. It saddens me to think even this horological giant does not escape the fate of many Chinese companies - a contract manufacturer working on very little margin, with little means to escape this cycle.Weighing against all of that is the fact that manufacture of Sea-Gull's most successful lines of uncased movements for export is distributed across several major factories other than Tianjin, resulting in an output that accounts for a quarter of all the world's mechanical watch movements. The assembly and sale of Sea-Gull branded watches has always been the smaller part of the business.
Also, in the past couple of years we've seen various articles, interviews and watch fair presentations, reported on this forum, indicating a shift in Sea-Gull brand focus towards the premium end of the market. This includes the development of high-grade movements that are reserved exclusively for in-house use. It may well be that the kinds of watches which we forum members most readily associate with the Sea-Gull name will in future only be produced under other brands, some of which will be Sea-Gull owned brands, and few of them assembled in Tianjin. However to achieve these goals, the management may need to consider new approaches to employment conditions and training in order to grow the kind of skilled workforce needed for the future.
Perhaps Ron may be able to offer some insights, based on his visits to the factory after the date on which that article was published, regarding any evidence of a change in factory culture.
Unfortunately your analysis makes a whole lot of sense to me! ...and I hope you will not be rightsomewhat off topic, but it's good into put things into context. Here it goes...
The problem with Seagull is that they are a SOE that have the usual SOE obligations that holding them back into agile business that's purely driving by profit and market share (and if they do so, it is corruption and right so). However, their work is not of a strategic importance that state will dump money into them for R&D. For example, AVIC get to play with fine 3D printed titanium, cause they make fighter jets and stuff) and Chinese semiconductor in industry will receive 100 Billion USD :roll: in state fund in the next few years. Clearly somethings will be ignored and sacrificed when state funds these targeted industries and unfortunately Sea-Gull is one of them. Of course, they can leverage their expertise in making and assembling tiny things and get into Medical, Aerospace and defense and receive chunk of change from Project 863. However, they would no longer be in the watch business, and probably will exit.
So oddly enough, its the companies that have not survived the turbulent 1990s like Beijing Watch and Pearl River watch what may be better positioned to survive in the mechanical watch sunset industry, since they don't have accumulated liabilities like Sea-Gull. So the ST6 that saved Sea-Gull may turn out to be a curse that will lead to their slow death. The truth is in 5 year the most popular Chinese watch seller in China would probably not be a watch company at all, a Xiaomi smart watch. (the fact that their sector is on the receiving end of 100 billion dollar worth of state funds certainly helps. Sea-Gull would laugh in her sleep just to get one thousandth of that money.)
