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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi and thanks in advance for your time and assistance!

I am looking for the hour and minute hands for the 23Z movement (only need these two hands, but will also buy all three if sold with sub second hand). The hour hand is approx. 12mm and minute hand approx. 16mm respectively, from the center of the hole.

I've looked on "x"bay without much luck, all sold with the movement and many sellers don't or won't spend the time to get the size information for me.

Any information about where to find them is greatly appreciated! THANKS AGAIN!
 

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WHERE ARE YOU? Sorry to shout, but it's incredibly difficult to get across the idea to new members (or even folks like you who been around for 4 years…) that people here are helpful, but it helps no one if the help is misdirected, ie you live in the USA, but the information on hand relates to European suppliers and so on.

Rant over. I'll assume that you are in the US, as you spelled center e-r rather that r-e.

First, look up the movement specification on the Ranfft database so often mentioned here. Here's your movement. Dr Ranfft specifies that your hand sizes are 1.34 x 0.76 / 0.20mm. What's that mean in English? Okay, the hole size for the hour hand is 1.34mm, hole size for the minute hand is .76mm and the second hand is .20mm.

Armed with this information, I would steer you to Ofrei, a watch materials supplier in the US (for what it's worth, there's nothing like their variety available new elsewhere). If you go to their hand section (under watch materials), you'll find a wide range of hands in various styles, one of which ought to suit the movement as well as the style of watch. I just got a set for a Longines calibre 12AS and they're perfect, so I'm confident you'll find something there.

WARNING: the hole sizes that Ranfft lists are usually accurate, taken from the good Doctor's own comprehensive sources, no doubt. But I've found that there can be differences between the data R has published and the real world actual dimensions. Please take this observation as opinion rather than fact, but in your case, I'd suggest that you're looking for H= 1.35mm and M= 75mm; there may be some slight opening or closing of the collets to fit exactly, but perhaps not.

When and if the exact hole size cannot be sourced, as is often the case, especially with vintage movements, then one has no choice but to adjust the hole size. When this is the case, then opening up the hole of a hand with no tube (as hour hands often are) may be possible. In this case, making a hole smaller is obviously not possible.

Pinching the tube of the minute hand can allow a minor re-adjustment and so a slightly larger nominal mounting size can sometimes be used. Equally, one can sometimes enlarge the tube with a broach, too, but I just find it easier to close the tube a smidgen rather than have to open it, so if I had a choice one way or the other than I'd vote to pinch it. Myself.

In both case, we are talking about small adjustments, forced upon us by necessity. But in general, it's easier to open up the hour hand hole, and to close down the minute hand tube. In general the key word here, but it just depends on what you come across in the real world.

The length of the hands you need will be particular to your watch, so you'll have to measure and estimate the distances for each hand and measure accordingly. Shortening hour and minute hands is a bad idea, generally; the second hand can and usually is cut to match the distance between the movement centre to the chapter ring.

A last point: this thread is sort of closer to a thread that might be better addressed on the Watchmaking board, but may be of interest here, too. I'll leave it up to the moderator on that one. But if you aren't in the US, and want to order from Ofrei, please read their shipping instructions carefully as they actually do ship for reasonable rates, it just doesn't first appear so. There's a thread on Watchmaking about this shipping policy, if you need to read up on it.

Hi and thanks in advance for your time and assistance!

I am looking for the hour and minute hands for the 23Z movement (only need these two hands, but will also buy all three if sold with sub second hand). The hour hand is approx. 12mm and minute hand approx. 16mm respectively, from the center of the hole.

I've looked on "x"bay without much luck, all sold with the movement and many sellers don't or won't spend the time to get the size information for me.

Any information about where to find them is greatly appreciated! THANKS AGAIN!
 

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A last point: this thread is sort of closer to a thread that might be better addressed on the Watchmaking board, but may be of interest here, too. I'll leave it up to the moderator on that one. But if you aren't in the US, and want to order from Ofrei, please read their shipping instructions carefully as they actually do ship for reasonable rates, it just doesn't first appear so.
Hey thanks for that. I actually always skipped them and removed from search results and parts hunting because of the shipping costs. It appears they will charge $51 for a small package and that's ridiculous ofcourse.
 

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Read again. They will ship it out much less, but you must make your purchase and include a note in the invoice panel requesting First Class International (or some such thing) and they will happily use this method, as long as your order is below certain weight and value restrictions. I found their service very good and recommend them - just read it carefully, 'cause in truth it's poorly written and put me off for a long time. But their hand selection is simply fantastic compared to others. Anyway, the info is all there, cloaked in an unclear mess of information. A slight demerit for that, but…

Hey thanks for that. I actually always skipped them and removed from search results and parts hunting because of the shipping costs. It appears they will charge $51 for a small package and that's ridiculous ofcourse.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Thanks for your reply Vintage1982 - is the case/reference number four digits? If so, I see that it's 6641, but I am unable to find any information online about it (I am only fair at best, with searching on the internet).

I don't have the watch with me but my measurements should be close to it's actual size (with a ruler next to the watch). I will try to post a picture of the hands/dial.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Habitant - Thanks so much for your time and assistance!

I apologize for not stating clearly, but I am able to have the parts shipped to my brother's in the states, so shipping shouldn't be a problem.

I saw the info on Ranfft database but I'm still learning to read the specs/info.

I will look up ofrei after this, thank so much!

And thanks so much for the "WARNING:..", really good to know! =)

WHERE ARE YOU? Sorry to shout, but it's incredibly difficult to get across the idea to new members (or even folks like you who been around for 4 years…) that people here are helpful, but it helps no one if the help is misdirected, ie you live in the USA, but the information on hand relates to European suppliers and so on.

Rant over. I'll assume that you are in the US, as you spelled center e-r rather that r-e.

First, look up the movement specification on the Ranfft database so often mentioned here. Here's your movement. Dr Ranfft specifies that your hand sizes are 1.34 x 0.76 / 0.20mm. What's that mean in English? Okay, the hole size for the hour hand is 1.34mm, hole size for the minute hand is .76mm and the second hand is .20mm.

Armed with this information, I would steer you to Ofrei, a watch materials supplier in the US (for what it's worth, there's nothing like their variety available new elsewhere). If you go to their hand section (under watch materials), you'll find a wide range of hands in various styles, one of which ought to suit the movement as well as the style of watch. I just got a set for a Longines calibre 12AS and they're perfect, so I'm confident you'll find something there.

WARNING: the hole sizes that Ranfft lists are usually accurate, taken from the good Doctor's own comprehensive sources, no doubt. But I've found that there can be differences between the data R has published and the real world actual dimensions. Please take this observation as opinion rather than fact, but in your case, I'd suggest that you're looking for H= 1.35mm and M= 75mm; there may be some slight opening or closing of the collets to fit exactly, but perhaps not. In general, it's easier to open up the hour hand hole, and to close down the minute hand collet, so if given a choice and within small tolerances, make your choices using this a guiding principle. The length of the hands you need will be particular to your watch, so you'll have to measure and estimate the distances for each hand and measure accordingly. Shortening hour and minute hands is a bad idea, generally; the second hand can and usually is cut to match the distance between the movement centre to the chapter ring.

A last point: this thread is sort of closer to a thread that might be better addressed on the Watchmaking board, but may be of interest here, too. I'll leave it up to the moderator on that one. But if you aren't in the US, and want to order from Ofrei, please read their shipping instructions carefully as they actually do ship for reasonable rates, it just doesn't first appear so. There's a thread on Watchmaking about this shipping policy, if you need to read up on it.
 

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Is the case/reference number four digits? If so, I see that it's 6641, but I am unable to find any information online about it.
Yes, that's the reference. On Cousins UK you can try and find parts like crystals and hands using the casenumber or reference number. No luck, sorry.
 

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Chances of finding "Longines" brand-specific hands for a movement that's nearly 50 years-old are very, very, very slim indeed. You do get oddities like ancient NOS discoveries, but I think there's nothing in it on this one. As I wrote earlier, the hands I got from Ofrei were/are virtually identical to the ones which had been on the Longines I had (and whose hands had been damaged by someone previously…).

Just had a look on eBay at the various 23Z models to be seen there and it seems to me that all the models shown have fairly typical hands, all of which you can certainly find at Ofrei.

Yes, that's the reference. On Cousins UK you can try and find parts like crystals and hands using the casenumber or reference number. No luck, sorry.
 

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. . . . In general, it's easier to open up the hour hand hole, and to close down the minute hand collet, so if given a choice and within small tolerances, make your choices using this a guiding principle. . . .
Would you care to expound on this line of reasoning?
 

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Not to you, Pithy, I'm afraid. I've seen you flame people, you're famous for it, so I just don't see the point. If you have a point to make, feel free to do so. I stated my opinion based on my experiences; if you have a different one, mazel tov, guy, let us know.
OP: There is some information in the watchmaking forum that you may find of interest.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I have been wanting to replace all three hands (pretty rusted) for a LeCoulte 476/2 movement but no luck finding information for the hands on ranfft... Where else do you guys suggestion I look?
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
The minute hand looks pretty bent (watch smith might be able to bend it back) but I don't have the luxury to wait and will need to buy the hands soon. Might as well get both to get a matching look.
 

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I have been wanting to replace all three hands (pretty rusted) for a LeCoulte 476/2 movement but no luck finding information for the hands on ranfft... Where else do you guys suggestion I look?
According to Bestfit it's 1.10 hour hand, 0.65 minute hand and 0.16 seconds hand.

best regards.
 

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New hands often require fitting as do many generic watch parts. I encourage all to get proper tools for this task. Among measuring tools, micrometers are invaluable. A bench mic is best but you can gingerly hold your conventional mic with a medium sized C-clamp to make the use of both hands available. Optimal bench height again comes into play for this task as your nose needs to be close to the item to be measured. While positioning the piece - depth and angle - with one hand, the other adjusts and locks the micrometer. Proper magnification (10X+) is beneficial in this work as is the best light. For some of this small work I dispense with the flouresent tube and use a small LED lamp in close proximity for a few minutes. A hand guage is prefered but in the absence of one a drill set can be utilized or a tapered (or stepped rod). The latter is a good lathe project.

Once the depth is located on the rod, the micrometer is then applied and the hole diameter divined. At this point we should have some general idea as to the approximate size holes needed in the hands. A closer, more expert examination will often reveal that the mating sufaces for the hands aren't constant radi but are tapers - slightly increasing in diameter as one proceeds toward the plate. Modern drawings often depict these tapers in the manufacture of canon pinions and hour wheels and sometimes in seconds or various subdial bits. For hands without collars or upsets this taper is essential in keeping the hands upright as the hand is secured by the interference fit in the absence of lateral support.

If the hole in my hand is slightly oversize for my application and is of flat material, I may attempt to close it on the stake set by compressing the periphery of the hole, thereby drving material towards center and hopefully reducing the hole diameter. Due to the lack of uniformity of the original manufacture, material, poorly surfaced stakes and anvils, lack of centering, technique in striking - the outcome is not always a positive one. On collared or thicker material, the success ratio goes up dramatically. To avoid the necessity of polishing - post strike - I have successly used polishing tape to protect the exterior finish. It removes easily with solvent. Note: Compressing the exterior of a flat hand - minute or seconds - in the area of the hole with pinschers usually isn't very successful. I have encounterd many loose hands to which this technique was applied.

In the absence of a replacement hand, one that has been crushed, cracked, severed or otherwise distorted can be reconstructed. The non ferrous hands can be straightened and flattened cold. Heat aids this work on the steel ones. Hard or soft solder can be applied to any joints and then filed and polished. A previous post shows the detail of a repair where a steel hour hand is fixed in this manner.

If the hand has an upset or collar or tube, the diameter can be reduced using the Bergeon hole closing tool. Its use is detailed in the accompanying literature. I prefer the use of lathe collets for this task. Sellect a collet that is the approximate size of the outside diameter of the tube/collar/upset and screw it loosely into the lathe. Insert the upset/collar/tube into it and continue to tighten until resistance is met. Remove the hand and test fit. If further reduction is required - repeat the previous process, slowly and incrementally. If you are inexperienced in this process insert a mandrel (forming die) inside the work that is a couple of percentages points smaller than the target compression. Twist drills or turned pinion wire serves well in this roll. In the absence of the lathe closing can be attempted with the quality, screw pinvise - using the mandrel. This 360 degree compression is important as the egged (pinscher product) never serves well.

If the hole in the hand is much smaller than what is required, a slightly smaller pivot cutter (than final diameter) can be chucked in the mill, the hand placed in a broaching vise mounted on the table, the x & y's adjusted and the hole enlarged. A tapered broach can then be used to increase the hole size to that of the approximate final size required. Hands with holes taper broached from the front seat with less pressure. Those taper broached from the back require more pressure. The first method yields point-to-point contact and less support area. If the tapers of the mounting surface and hand hole are similar and parallel and the hand is firmly seated - the hand is less subject to possible deflection. I commonly find examples of both kinds of work - from the factory as well as the repairman.
 

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A few places to shop for hands. The inventory for many of them isn't limited to the online offerings so it's often interesting to visit with a live body.

A*F SWITZERLAND ::

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Beco Technic

Bergeon SA - Depuis 1791 - Site

boley GmbH

Bullnheimer & Co.Der Zulieferer für die Uhren und Schmucktechnik

Cas-Ker Jewelers Supplies

DASHTO HOROLOGICAL SERVICES HOME PAGE

Parts for Watches - Eckcells - Watch Materials and Tools - MA & NH

http://www.ernst-westphal.de/

Replacement Watch Hands | Quartz Watch Hands | Esslinger.com

Watch Parts List

JulesBorel.com - Read Caliber

Livesay's Jeweler&Watchmaker Supplies Since 1969

Gateway 2000, pc parts, watch parts, computer hardware, rolex watches and vga cards : Palo Alto Computing

Uhren Römer | Ständig mehr als eine Million Uhrenersatzteile von mehr als 3500 alten Kalibern auf Lager.

Scotchwatch watch parts,Omega,Rolex,Valjoux,IWC,Fred Piguet, Chrono

smithsupplyhouse.com

Star Time Supply- Watch Batteries, Movements, Tools and Supplies

Twin City Supply

VOH - SHOP en ligne

The William S. McCaw Company - Serving the Watch and Jewelry Industries Since 1913

Boley has some sizing info and some case parts listed by case number.

JB has some size info.

It is almost certain that one of the antiquers such as a Antiques Anastasia or Dasto or Hans Eckert or Bobby Frei or Palo Alto Micro or Roemer or Scotch has had these exact pieces in carded NOS or tube OEM replacement as Longines/Wittnauer/Lecoutre/Vacheron stuff was just to common for the material not to exist.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Found some sealed OEM Longines hands (for 9L movement but ranfft info suggests that the holes are the same size for both movements) but don't know how to decode the information...someone indicated that the number before M/M is the "width" of the dial that the hands fit on, but with the varying styles of indicies and design this could still be risky...

Does the number before "M/M" indicate the width of a square dial and diameter of a round dial?

What does "65B" indicate?

Thanks again! =)
 

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Here goes… I'm sure that there's someone out there who knows for a fact, but I'll have a guess. I'm reminded of similar catalogue number systems such as those by Omega and Bulova. Not sure of the exact codes for Longines, but the '65B' I would guess as being the style number (65) and the 'B' style type (baton). 16mm would normally refer to the minute hand length, which is the most typical measure given for a hand set; the minute hand length seems to define the hour hand length, which is in some proportion to the minute. 16mm seems quite long to me, though, especially as 9L = Longines 25.17, a small 8 x 11.5''' movement. Perhaps, as you suggest, they are intended for a much larger dial, which sometimes happens (a small rectangular movement cased in a much larger, round dial/case, that is). All the same, your package suggests that the minute hand is 16mm long, etc.
 
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