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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I was thinking about the mix of opinions on the display backs for the new POs, and wondered why Omega went this way - it's a little odd for diver. Yes it's great to see the superb new movements, but do you think it's also a way to stop the fakers?

There's a thread on TZ-UK with detailed photos of an extremely accurate fake of an Orange PO with boxes and papers. With the back off you can see how basic the movement is, so maybe the new strategy is another way Omega are trying to combat fakers?

It won't stop the average man in the street from being duped, but anyone with half a WIS inside them would probably know the difference?
 

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There's a thread on TZ-UK with detailed photos of an extremely accurate fake of an Orange PO with boxes and papers. With the back off you can see how basic the movement is, so maybe the new strategy is another way Omega are trying to combat fakers?
Actually, the movement in the TZ-UK one is a copy of the 2824 (Tianjin ST24) which is extremely similar to the 2892 (of which there is also a Chinese copy, the Tianjin ST26) which, with minor modifications is all but indistinguishable from the 2500. With a glass back, the fakers would simply drop in an ST26, put a little more effort into decoration and the arms race will continue.
 

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do you think it's also a way to stop the fakers?
No. There are TONS of fake Rollies with display backs. (All of which display a fake Rolex Movement.) I only have one watch with a display back and that is on my Tissot SeaStar 1000. The topic of display vs non-display backs have been beat to death on these forums. While seeing your mechanical automatic beauty in motion is neat, it gets old within 5 minutes. Nobody can see the display back anyways unless you wear your watch with the dial on your wrist and the back side face up. If you wanna see the movement in-action and be able to tell time, take the dial out.
 

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you can buy fake po with display backs now. omega are proberly proud of the so called in-house movement.
 

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you can buy fake po with display backs now. omega are proberly proud of the so called in-house movement.
Don't worry, there is a really good fake Rolex 3035 movement out there too. No one is claiming that the 2500 is in house merely that the coaxial escapement is. No one has faked this. Frankly, the fact that the Chinese can knock up an exact (or even uprated!) copy of a Rolex or ETA movement, admittedly with inferior metallurgy, for less than fifty dollars retail, rather undermines the excessive prices the Swiss charge! Which is worse, fakery or overcharging by getting on for two orders of magnitude?
 

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Matt you hit the nail on the head. The reason why fakes exist is because the authentic is so overpriced with regards to the actual cost of manufacturing. Someone caught on to the fact that you can make a very similar item at 1/10th or 1/20th (or less) the cost and still make a good profit with it. It's why we see so many fakes of things that are, for the most part, fashion items - bags, sunglasses, clothes, jewelry, watches...these are things that on the one hand, generally are very low-tech or no-tech to produce, and on the other, have a price put on them with an eye on notions such as "exclusivity" - but how do you really quantify that. It's also why we don't see (large scale) falsifying industries of other popular goods, it's either too difficult to reproduce them or if it is, there's not enough profit in it to make it worthwhile. I'm not defending falsifications by any means, don't own any and never will, but it does kind of make you feel like a dupe.
 
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
But you don't just pay for the manufacturing of the item, there's also:

* Brand image/reputation
* Exclusivity
* Support/repair network
* Development and design costs etc
* etc

Then market forces kick in and people charge what the market will support.
 

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But you don't just pay for the manufacturing of the item, there's also:

* Brand image/reputation
* Exclusivity
* Support/repair network
* Development and design costs etc
* etc

Then market forces kick in and people charge what the market will support.
No doubt, but of the four things you mentioned, 2 are clearly quantifiable - Support/repair network and Development and Design costs. - You could also throw in other costs, depending on the situation, such as real estate expenses (rent in the case of boutiques etc) but I think it's the first two you mentioned, where they go nuts
 

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Don't worry, there is a really good fake Rolex 3035 movement out there too. No one is claiming that the 2500 is in house merely that the coaxial escapement is. No one has faked this. Frankly, the fact that the Chinese can knock up an exact (or even uprated!) copy of a Rolex or ETA movement, admittedly with inferior metallurgy, for less than fifty dollars retail, rather undermines the excessive prices the Swiss charge! Which is worse, fakery or overcharging by getting on for two orders of magnitude?
totally agree with everything you are saying
 

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No doubt, but of the four things you mentioned, 2 are clearly quantifiable - Support/repair network and Development and Design costs. - You could also throw in other costs, depending on the situation, such as real estate expenses (rent in the case of boutiques etc) but I think it's the first two you mentioned, where they go nuts
I'm happy to know that at least .0003% of the price I pay goes on bananas for the Swatch Service Centres. I'm less happy that a percentage also goes towards facelifts and Italian holiday homes for millionaires but that's the price I pay for making sure everyone knows that my watch is nice and expensive. I'm not knocking the ambassadors (fair play to them. If the gravy is offered...) but I do think it's tragic that celebrity endorsement is deemed so essential by company and buyers alike.

On a serious note, we can't honestly expect Swiss workers to survive on Chinese wages and shipping out all production to the most competitive production pool (i.e. China), like good little capitalists, would render the whole point of a Swiss watch industry void.
I understand that they are already trying to close some of the "Swiss Made" loopholes.
 

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m4tt was talking about the 8500 movement
I'm not sure he was. He assures me he was talking about the coaxial escapement shared by the 8500 and the 2500.

On a serious note, we can't honestly expect Swiss workers to survive on Chinese wages and shipping out all production to the most competitive production pool (i.e. China), like good little capitalists, would render the whole point of a Swiss watch industry void.
This is one of the reasons that the West is in such trouble. For too many years The West has exported the technology, expertise and training to 'The Rest', not to open up new markets but to drive down labour costs by reimporting the finished products. The unfortunate side effect of this 'race to the bottom' approach is to destroy the delicate balance between labour and capital that Western democracies are based upon. With free trade and free markets it's impossible to see how the current situation can carry on and yes, if the world is going to carry on buying Western products at all, Western workers are going to have to swallow a substantial deterioration in their pay and conditions to remain competitive with the second world economies Western companies so foolishly trained and equipped as a route to cheap labour. The Swiss are comparatively well of simply because they were smart enough not to do this so much and so they still have the expertise at home. However, the Chinese are now in a position to produce watches that the Swiss haven't been able to produce for two generations as they have a very cheap but highly skilled workforce just waiting to hand make poise and finish watches while the Swiss rely on robotic manufacture. No one in their right mind will pay more for a robot made watch over a man made one (if all other aspects are equal); this is a race that the Swiss ultimately cannot win once the Chinese actually get organised. It's not as if this hasn't happened before, The Japanese killed off the British and American watch industry and damn nearly wiped out the Swiss. The Japanese are nowhere near as dangerous as the Chinese to the West.
 

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I don't know about stopping the fakers, but it'll definately stop me from buying one. Opinion, as you say, is very divided, but if I wanted a display back, I'd buy a dress watch, and I hate dress watches. I want divers and I want steel casebacks.
 

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But you don't just pay for the manufacturing of the item, there's also:

* Brand image/reputation
* Exclusivity
* Support/repair network
* Development and design costs etc
* etc

Then market forces kick in and people charge what the market will support.
I think you forgot *profit in the list, nobody sells anything if they can't make profit and rightly so. Anyway if the Chinese could make watches that looks better and performs better and have more advanced complications than the Swiss autos then everyone will buy Chinese.
 

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This is one of the reasons that the West is in such trouble. For too many years The West has exported the technology, expertise and training to 'The Rest', not to open up new markets but to drive down labour costs by reimporting the finished products. The unfortunate side effect of this 'race to the bottom' approach is to destroy the delicate balance between labour and capital that Western democracies are based upon. With free trade and free markets it's impossible to see how the current situation can carry on and yes, if the world is going to carry on buying Western products at all, Western workers are going to have to swallow a substantial deterioration in their pay and conditions to remain competitive with the second world economies Western companies so foolishly trained and equipped as a route to cheap labour. The Swiss are comparatively well of simply because they were smart enough not to do this so much and so they still have the expertise at home. However, the Chinese are now in a position to produce watches that the Swiss haven't been able to produce for two generations as they have a very cheap but highly skilled workforce just waiting to hand make poise and finish watches while the Swiss rely on robotic manufacture. No one in their right mind will pay more for a robot made watch over a man made one (if all other aspects are equal); this is a race that the Swiss ultimately cannot win once the Chinese actually get organised. It's not as if this hasn't happened before, The Japanese killed off the British and American watch industry and damn nearly wiped out the Swiss. The Japanese are nowhere near as dangerous as the Chinese to the West.
Lets hope the Chinese average wage reaches the European average wage before Europe gets thrown into a civil war for resources. I have no doubt things will get really ugly when the poverty quota goes to high.

-EDIT-

They say don't drink and drive, i say don't drink and post on forums - ouch my headache is killing me today.
 

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countries should change the cap on imported goods
We tried that once before, protectionism gave us the great depression and ultimately the breeding ground for fascism and WWII. Sadly we have the tiger by the tail, unthinkable debt and a monster we created through several varieties of cretinous greed. I can't see it ending well.
 

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Rolex with display backs? That's odd and unnecessary since only the Cellini line has them. Rolex movements are fairly utilitarian. Attractive enough but no AP or PP.
 
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