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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Dear all,
It seems like Sinn has decided to stop advertising what movement ticks inside their watches. When you click on the "Technical details" tab on any of their watches in the Sinn website it just says "High-quality mechanical movement". And when you click on that sentence the page redirects you to the following text:

In addition to technology, the heart of any SINN watch is the fascinating mechanical movement. We use exclusively the very best quality of movements provided by renowned manufacturers with proven experience with whom we’ve been working for many years:

  • ETA SA Manufacture Horlogère Suisse, Grenchen, Switzerland
  • Manufacture La Joux-Perret SA, La Chaux-de-Fonds, Switzerland
  • SELLITA WATCH CO, La Chaux-de-Fonds, Switzerland
  • Soprod SA, Les Reussilles, Switzerland
  • Uhren-Werke-Dresden, Germany
The movements are also manufactured in parts in accordance with our technical specifications.
As required by capacities, we reserve the right to switch between the manufacturers mentioned above when it comes to sourcing the movement for a single model. In other words, the movement actually used may differ from that listed in the technical specifications. However, we always use a movement of highest quality from one of the manufacturers mentioned above.
Should you have any individual questions regarding your watch, we’ll be happy to advise you personally.


This is unfortunate to say the least. I was about to pull the trigger on a Sinn EZM 3. It was my understanding that EZM 3 has (or used to have) an ETA 2824 ticking under the hood. I have had two bad experiences with SW200-1 and don't want that movement. Now according to their website I might get a SW200-1 movement if I get the watch...
 

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I think it's good of them to be open about the fact that they need to switch between manufacturers depending on availability, especially with Swatch having played games with ETA distribution.
I have to admit that I'm personally happier with a Valjoux 7750 than I would be with a Sellita SW500, but that really has more to do with the history of the Valjoux movement and its label than with any concerns I have about the construction. As far as brands in this price range go, Sinn is pretty darn committed to their movements functioning reliably and accurately. I wouldn't hesitate to buy another one.
Good discussion though. Always interesting and worthwhile to think about these topics with manufacturers that aren't producing stuff in-house.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
The situation with the availability of ETA is very unfortunate indeed. But I think that buyers have the right to know what movement is inside a >$1000 watch, not to mention in some of their >$3000 pieces. Of the top of my head, the only other brand that I can think of that ships you either an ETA or a Sellita without letting you know is Christopher Ward...
 

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The situation with the availability of ETA is very unfortunate indeed. But I think that buyers have the right to know what movement is inside a >$1000 watch, not to mention in some of their >$3000 pieces. Of the top of my head, the only other brand that I can think of that ships you either an ETA or a Sellita without letting you know is Christopher Ward...
Yeah, definitely agree that it would be better to know than not know before buying. But I can also imagine a problematic situation in which distributors have lots of pieces in stock with one movement, and Sinn make the switch and have a different movement advertised on their website. What's worse than not knowing is thinking you know, buying the watch, and having it arrive with a different movement!

Clearly, the solution is for someone to give Nick Hayek Jr. a stern talk. Giant conglomerates always manage to find a way to screw up good products.
 

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Doing this gives watch manufacturers a bit more wriggle room if any particular movement becomes difficult to source.
From a manufacturer's or assembler's point of view, the sourcing freedom appears to be advantageous.
However, obfuscating this piece of information may be detrimental to sales in the long run -- it will depend on how many Sinn buyers actually care about knowing about the movement.
If Sinn is business smart, then they did some consumer habit research before implementing this change.
 

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.
If Sinn is business smart, then they did some consumer habit research before implementing this change.

Seems pretty likely, and I think (hope) the response from customers will be mostly nonchalant. There are a crapload of brands with ETA or Sellita movements, or Miyota or Seiko for that matter. If someone is out to get a 2824, there are cheaper ways to get it; my point being that Sinn fans buy Sinn because of everything that surrounds the movement.

Another thought I'm having is that Sinn has always used what was available (Lemania chronographs, for instance). I'm wondering if there was another time in the past when Sinn didn't advertise what movements they were using. Longstride's thread on the 103 has a scan of an ad from the 1980s, and it doesn't contain any movement information. The company might have made that information available elsewhere, of course.
 

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I'm glad they are being straight forward about it and with Swatch Group "doing what they do" I can't blame them. That being said I do hope in the future they list the specific model of movement they go with for each watch. Anytime your spending more than 1,000 on a watch I think the consumer has a right to know.

Luckily I picked up my 1736 a month ago. And while I got it for the clean looks what made me pull the trigger was the Top Grade ETA 2892 that was in it. While I do own various in house watches such as Jaeger LeCoultre, Omega, etc I wanted a watch that could reliably take a beating on a daily basis. Sinn overbuilds their watches and despite what some watch snobs will tell you ETA makes some great movements. Top grade is very accurate and the things are tanks. Meanwhile my Jaegers while beautiful have been to the shop within one year of owning them for warranty work.

So yeah, again I get it. But still there are people like myself who will choose a watch based on the movement among other things. If Sinn wants to keep charging what they charge for watches with the new movements that's fine too. But at their prices I expect to know what I am paying for.
 

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i agree, however I think we need to wait to see if they release the information during a sale ... it would make sense to pull it off the website if they can't reliably source movements.

In short, pulling the info off the website is totally fine, but not telling you what your specific watch has when you go to buy it would not be ideal.
 

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I think this might be the start of a shift in the watch world for the smaller manufacturers. As time goes on, we might just have to learn to be satisfied that there is a “top grade movement” running the watch regardless of origins/make. As long as there is a solid warranty in place, not really sure it actually matters, other than personal preference. Tough one...
 

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There might be more impetus now for to push for in-house. I personally don't think it's necessary, and would be happy to keep buying Sinn as long as they're rigorously qc-ing and regulating the movements that come through their doors. But I have to admit that I'd jump in that purchase line pretty quick if it ever happened.

"Under your leadership, Sinn has launched a series of technologies that seem to focus primarily on the outside of a watch. Will we ever see a Sinn in-house movement?

We have already developed several movement modifications. We are fitting some of our series models with our SZ movement modifications — which are developed, built, and assembled in-house. I am toying with the idea of an in-house movement. The questions of when this will actually be feasible is another matter.
"

https://www.watchtime.com/featured/lothar-schmidt-sinn-watches-interview/
 

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Seeing as how Sinn had to change movements in the T1 and T2 due to problems with performance (actually keeping time and not being a piece of jewelry). Yeah I wanna know what's in the case.
 

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There might be more impetus now for to push for in-house. I personally don't think it's necessary, and would be happy to keep buying Sinn as long as they're rigorously qc-ing and regulating the movements that come through their doors. But I have to admit that I'd jump in that purchase line pretty quick if it ever happened.

"Under your leadership, Sinn has launched a series of technologies that seem to focus primarily on the outside of a watch. Will we ever see a Sinn in-house movement?

We have already developed several movement modifications. We are fitting some of our series models with our SZ movement modifications — which are developed, built, and assembled in-house. I am toying with the idea of an in-house movement. The questions of when this will actually be feasible is another matter.
"

https://www.watchtime.com/featured/lothar-schmidt-sinn-watches-interview/
The thing with in-house is, then the brand has to expend the money on new hires, tooling, training, floor space, materials, etc and all of those costs get baked back into a watch PLUS servicing costs balloon! It just doesn't make any sense for the consumer or the industry to have a zillion brands all with a duplicative capability for no real benefit to anyone.

Sure, with something like the Zenith Freak or the new Defy stuff, yeah you need in-house people to build that, but this is Sinn we're talking about: tool watches!

A killer tool watch should be tough as nails with an industry standard easily serviceable movement.

I'd much rather see Sinn continue to push innovation on materials versus duplicating a mostly commodity capability with no tool watch benefit.

EDIT
Maybe Sinn, Oris, and a few others should team up and buy Sellita to create an industry asset with the capacity to supply them all, while all staying independent.
 

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but this is Sinn we're talking about: tool watches!

A killer tool watch should be tough as nails with an industry standard easily serviceable movement.

I'd much rather see Sinn continue to push innovation on materials versus duplicating a mostly commodity capability with no tool watch benefit.

Totally agree. They could spend the money elsewhere.
And yes, a partnership between Sinn and Sellita could be a great idea. Imagine Sellita producing a grade of each caliber to Sinn's specifications.
 

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The thing with in-house is, then the brand has to expend the money on new hires, tooling, training, floor space, materials, etc and all of those costs get baked back into a watch PLUS servicing costs balloon! It just doesn't make any sense for the consumer or the industry to have a zillion brands all with a duplicative capability for no real benefit to anyone.

Sure, with something like the Zenith Freak or the new Defy stuff, yeah you need in-house people to build that, but this is Sinn we're talking about: tool watches!

A killer tool watch should be tough as nails with an industry standard easily serviceable movement.

I'd much rather see Sinn continue to push innovation on materials versus duplicating a mostly commodity capability with no tool watch benefit.

EDIT
Maybe Sinn, Oris, and a few others should team up and buy Sellita to create an industry asset with the capacity to supply them all, while all staying independent.
That would be great, but getting these watch companies to agree on anything would be almost impossible !!!


Also, when your company depends so much on a movement, why would you bet your future on the whim of somebody else? ETA's pattens are long expired and they could just copy the movements, since they already modify most of it.
 

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why would you bet your future on the whim of somebody else?
Same reason any company outsources anything - margin, risk & costs. BMW buys engines from Styr and transmissions from ZF.

Outsourcing eliminates the need for massive fixed costs and gives companies the ability to scale up / down production rapidly enabling market agility and flexibility to vary with demand and trends. The supplier can spread the demand risk across many customers, thus limiting the fixed cost risk while also building functional density at doing one thing really well, which improves the product at optimal cost for all.

If you want the best watch for best price, splitting off the costs and risks of movement development is by far the best way to achieve that and it's why the entire industry has worked that way as long as it's existed.

The only possible reason to build in-house movements is because customers have become imbeciles, willing to pay ridiculous amounts of money for a worse product but "oooo ohhhh in-house! here's $25k for a $1k watch in an inefficient industry"

Hopefully that answers your question.
 

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Same reason any company outsources anything - margin, risk & costs. BMW buys engines from Styr and transmissions from ZF.

Outsourcing eliminates the need for massive fixed costs and gives companies the ability to scale up / down production rapidly enabling market agility and flexibility to vary with demand and trends. The supplier can spread the demand risk across many customers, thus limiting the fixed cost risk while also building functional density at doing one thing really well, which improves the product at optimal cost for all.

If you want the best watch for best price, splitting off the costs and risks of movement development is by far the best way to achieve that and it's why the entire industry has worked that way as long as it's existed.

The only possible reason to build in-house movements is because customers have become imbeciles, willing to pay ridiculous amounts of money for a worse product but "oooo ohhhh in-house! here's $25k for a $1k watch in an inefficient industry"

Hopefully that answers your question.
I understand about the outsourcing, but Sinn's watches have increased in price, and if they told me that they are putting movements that haven't been proven like the ETA movements, then it would be a tough sell. Now if they lower their prices because they are able to source more economical movements, then it's a different story. Unfortunately, this industry is about pedigree and how good you market it, as much as anything else.
 
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