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Hello Everyone. To preface, in the past I have dealt with several Patak Philippe pocket watches but cannot claim to be an expert. Hence, my posting here to benefit by the wisdom of other members.

I am currently in negotiations to purchase a Patek Philippe Chronograph pocket watch, whose pictures are attached. The movement is an older one and the seller states is marked PP with the serial number underneath the dial. From past experience with Patek Philippe pocket watches I know that they did put their mark and serial number underneath the dial on older pocket watches.

Naturally, the seller is reluctant to remove the dial himself. Equally understandably, this makes me somewhat nervous.

This watch has been recased.

In the past when dealing with such pocket watches I have been acquainted with the seller or the watch was still in its original case marked by Patek Philippe, giving me some comfort. However, the seller in this case does offer me a full refund guarantee on the watch. Still it is better to be sure before buying than trying to get my money returned afterward.

Importantly, the watch is not cheap. Neither would I expect it to be if everything is as it is represented.

Attached are several photos of the movement which I hope the experts here can review and give me their opinions upon. Please tell me everything that you are able and offer as detailed an explanation of your views as possible.

Thanks to everyone for their time and I really hope you can make up for my own ignorance on this watch. Take care.
 

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I am totally ignorant about the watch, but I would just like to say, that in I would not pay top $$ for a recased PP.

Is it possible to have a pic of the dial?

Also a pic of the inner caseback would be very useful. Is the case 14 or 18k gold?
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Thank you for your prompt reply to my post.

To answer the previous questions:
1. I'll try to get a photo of the dial in a day or two. It does say Patek Philippe & Cie (small underline beneath the ie) above the hands and Geneve beneath the hands. I am not in doubt about the authenticity of the dial.
2. I'll also try to get a photo of the case, but that isn't very important to me. It is a sterling silver case. The value of the case is only as silver.

My main concern on this is whether the movement is authentic.

Thanks again and will try to get the photo up presently.
 

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Ok, me (the Ignorasmus) again.
WHY is a PP chrono movement cased in silver? Strange.
This is not just a pocketwatch, it is a PP. and, not just ANY PP movement, it is suposedly a chrono PP!

IMO, if this was my watch, and if the movement is legit, basically I would feel the need to send it to PP to have it properly recased (and serviced) . That is the only way to do it justice, and get the full value.

That is in my opnion, of course others will soon chime in with their thoughts!
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
Thanks, Janne. You've actually read my mind. If I decide to purchase I will send it to Patek to have it rejuvinated and properly cased. Just need to be sure on authenticity before I invest such a sum.
 

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I tried to look on the finishing of the base movement. My laptop is too small to see if it is finished to PP standard. The parts of the chrono are not.
But, what do I know?

Edit: I am a total Idiot! Send an email to PP with the pics, they will tell you!!!
 

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Discussion Starter #7
That's a great idea. I had no idea they did such reviews. Perhaps they can shed some light on the matter, but I hope that everyone will continue to post their views / opinions / assessments of the movement. Thanks again!
 

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They do. they have the archives filled with all info they need to expertly not only see if it is Legit, but also to rebuild it as new condition!
 

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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
I've sent a letter to Patek in Switzerland asking them to review my photos. However, I strongly doubt they will do it for a variety of reasons. Not least of which, they won't want to be held liable for any kind of assurance either way on the watch. As for the archives, that costs 100 Swiss Francs and can take up to two months. Needless to say, that is not feasible under the circumstances.

So if there are any other members opinions out there on the authenticity of this movement please post your comments. Also, please bear in mind that this movement is about 100 years old and has been recased so the finish will not appear as new. Anyway, I'm eager to hear any and all opinions. Thanks.
 

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I've sent a letter to Patek in Switzerland asking them to review my photos. However, I strongly doubt they will do it for a variety of reasons. Not least of which, they won't want to be held liable for any kind of assurance either way on the watch. As for the archives, that costs 100 Swiss Francs and can take up to two months. Needless to say, that is not feasible under the circumstances.

So if there are any other members opinions out there on the authenticity of this movement please post your comments. Also, please bear in mind that this movement is about 100 years old and has been recased so the finish will not appear as new. Anyway, I'm eager to hear any and all opinions. Thanks.
This is a plausible fake and not a good one. As far as I know, Patek Phillipe never made cylinder escapement watches, or at least, I have never seen one, and I've looked at quite a few auction catalogs. The balance, in particular is very pedestrian. There appear to be no timing screws and no temperature compensation screws, and the balance is not even a bimetallic balance.

FAKE! The workmanship of the chrono mechanism seems average for a chronograph pocket watch, and there is no reasonable explanation for the watch to be recased.

Also, the big question: Where is the Patek Phillipe signature on this watch? Or I should say, from this era, Patek & Philippe. I have not seen a unsigned Patek movement. Sorry, they do not exist.

I'm going to take another look at your photos--it's impossible to go back and for between a post and the photos--and make some more comments.

DON'T BUY IT!!
 

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A few more comments: movement finish is very prosaic, and absolutely not Patek quality. The acid finished plates or a bit more typical of German manufacture than the Swiss, who followed French practice of jewel like finish on all exposed brass.

Also, none of the jewels appear to be rubbed in or chacon set. This also is very untypical of what you would expect in a Patek Philippe chronograph.

"F" for Fake. Don't buy it.
 

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This is an 1889 Patek Philippe pocket watch movement. Very well signed and detailed. I have to agree that this does not look legit.
http://www.bogoff.com/pocket/6428.html
Thanks for posting this. It truly reinforces what I say. To which I will add two more things: Patek's somewhat (but not unusually so) distinct movement layout is completely missing (including wolf teeth rachet wheel) and also Patek watches seem to love very distinctive regulators. The Chronograph being offered is entirely lacking in this aspect too.
 

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Well I don't know if this is a PP or not but I disagree that the quality
of this watch is poor.

It looks to me to be late 19c Geneva work of very high quality.
It is not a cylinder escapement, it is a lever and I'm certain that the balance
will be cut, compensated and weighted with gold screws.

The 'exposed brass' is almost certainly gold frosted, the jewels are 'rubbed in'.
The chrono springs are polished and bevelled as in high quality Geneva work.

Saying that, it doesn't look like PP design.... some very high quality Geneva movements were unsigned, I'd need to see another PP with the same movement before I bought this as a Patek Phillipe.
 

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Well I don't know if this is a PP or not but I disagree that the quality
of this watch is poor.

It looks to me to be late 19c Geneva work of very high quality.
It is not a cylinder escapement, it is a lever and I'm certain that the balance
will be cut, compensated and weighted with gold screws.

The 'exposed brass' is almost certainly gold frosted, the jewels are 'rubbed in'.
The chrono springs are polished and bevelled as in high quality Geneva work.

Saying that, it doesn't look like PP design.... some very high quality Geneva movements were unsigned, I'd need to see another PP with the same movement before I bought this as a Patek Phillipe.
Take a closer look at the picture. That is a cylinder escapement. It is not a lever. You can clearly see the cylinder escape wheel. The watch is at rest (I believe) and there is no sign of the balance being cut, compensated or weighed with screws, gold or otherwise.

The exposed brass may be either GP or acid frosted. But it is not a finish that is at all typical of Patek and I have not (as of yet) seen a Patek with this finish. As for the chrono springs being of good quality ,...of course.

But this is neither a Patek nor is it a lever.
 

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I can assure you that this is a lever watch, I can see that quite
clearly. I can also see that the balance is in motion.

Good sites can be found on the net which will explain to you the basic escapement
types to be had.

I reserve my judgement as to wether or not this is a PP
 

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The exposed brass may be either GP or acid frosted. But it is not a finish that is at all typical of Patek and I have not (as of yet) seen a Patek with this finish. As for the chrono springs being of good quality ,...of course.

But this is neither a Patek nor is it a lever.
There is a Patek Phillipe on this forum, at this time with as gold frosted
movement.
 
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