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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Just want to share this experience for all of you that use PayPal to sell and THINK you're protected when the buyer wants to jack around with you. You aren't. Period. Search for other complaints about paypal online this is a very common problem.

Cliff Notes: Paypal doesn't protect sellers. You wanna scam someone? Go right ahead by using your credit card company to muscle paypal into giving into disputes in favor of the buyer.


-Sold a watch to a guy in another city for $5,000 in April of 2014.
-He contacts me well after the 90 day period in which you can create a paypal dispute saying the item is not as it is. (Possibly a mental issue combined with buyers remorse with the guy as he was making outrageous claims. All documented and sent to PP)
-Paypal closes the buyers dispute and emails me back saying they will take no further action against me since it was beyond the 90 day period they protect buyers. (As it should be, right?)
-Fast Forward months later to October 2014, I get a notification that my paypal balance is negative $5,000. Paypal says the buyer contacted his credit card company, and that I now owe Paypal $5,000 since that was the amount the credit card company took from Paypal as a chargeback and paid back their customer. At this point I am out $5000 and out a watch!!! :-|

This is why I now only do FTF Deals and accept payment via Bankwire/Deposit/Money Order. My reputation speaks for itself here on WUS for the past 5 years so I don't need paypal anymore.
 

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A couple questions:

1) Did buyer contact you at all and ask for a refund?
2) Did you have a chance to object to the chargeback request? There is usually an appeal period with the credit card company.
3) Has Paypal pulled money out of any of your accounts, or are you just sitting at -$5,000.00.
 

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Most people on WUS are aware of the issues with PayPal and how the seller isn't protected.

The buyer did an end-run around PayPal and got reimbursed through the credit card company, so PayPal had no choice but to charge it back to you. If he hasn't returned your watch, however, he has committed fraud and if I were you I would contact the local police where the person lives and open a case with them to get your watch back (assuming the buyer is ignoring you and keeping the watch).

Also, try to get more information from PayPal so you can attempt to challenge it with the credit card company. They should have at least tried to investigate further before they made the charge-back.
 

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Most people on WUS are aware of the issues with PayPal and how the seller isn't protected.

The buyer did an end-run around PayPal and got reimbursed through the credit card company, so PayPal had no choice but to charge it back to you. If he hasn't returned your watch, however, he has committed fraud and if I were you I would contact the local police where the person lives and open a case with them.

Also, try to get more information from PayPal so you can attempt to challenge it with the credit card company. They should have at least tried to investigate further before they made the charge-back.
It's a bit strange, actually, why wouldn't Paypal charge the buyer the $5,000.00, since Paypal denied the claim? The buyer is now responsible for the $5,000.00, not the seller.

*edit* I just read this:

https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=xpt/seller/ChargebackRisk-outside#Q2

Wow... crappy policy.

How can a seller recover funds when a chargeback occurs?

When a chargeback occurs, the money that is subject to the chargeback is deducted from PayPal's bank account. In turn, PayPal places a temporary hold on the same amount in the seller's PayPal balance (i.e., the funds related to the transaction are frozen).

The seller and PayPal can work together to investigate the chargeback with the buyer's credit card company. While the chargeback is being investigated, PayPal will debit the seller for the amount in question. If the investigation is resolved in favor of the seller with the credit card company, the credit card company will reimburse PayPal for the chargeback and PayPal will transfer the recovered funds back to the seller. Depending on the credit card company involved, the process may take up to 75 calendar days. In a dispute over a chargeback, the decision is ultimately made by the credit card company and PayPal cannot control the outcome.

How do PayPal and the seller work together to investigate a chargeback with the buyer's credit card company?

Sellers can provide PayPal with evidence to dispute the chargeback through the Resolution Center, by email at [email protected], or fax. PayPal uses this evidence plus any evidence PayPal may already have to investigate the chargeback with the buyer's credit card company. Because of deadlines imposed by the credit card companies, sellers must respond quickly (usually within three calendar days) once they are notified of a chargeback. Response deadlines can be found in the email PayPal sends to the seller when notifying them of a chargeback.

PayPal reserves the right not to dispute a chargeback even if the seller has provided some evidence, particularly if PayPal believes the dispute is not likely to be successful.
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
1) Did buyer contact you at all and ask for a refund? Yes he did but he was stating outrageous claims such as the watch was not all original and not in fact true to the year per serial number. Also brought in religion as my name is christian and he is a "Good Christian" Really loopy.. this was about 100 days AFTER he received the watch from me!
2) Did you have a chance to object to the chargeback request? There is usually an appeal period with the credit card company. Yes I did, I provided evidence to paypal which they claimed was saved as evidence to the CC Company including all correspondence
3) Has Paypal pulled money out of any of your accounts, or are you just sitting at -$5,000.00. My account was sitting at -$5000 and sure enough a collections company called and sent letters to me
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I guess it's because paypal is out $5000 since the credit card company took it from them. So they dump it on me, the seller to repay them.

Brent: He did return the watch eventually and man he must have worn that thing everywhere including lawn work. Must be nice to borrow a watch that long
 

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I don't trust any company. I do, however, trust WIS with stellar feedback.

Stick with people who have feedback and there's much, much less risk.
 

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Brent: He did return the watch eventually and man he must have worn that thing everywhere including lawn work. Must be nice to borrow a watch that long
Man, what a soul-devoid jerk. He has to meet the same maker we all do, so forgive him and move on. Learn from this and apply the lessons across the board.
 
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1) Did buyer contact you at all and ask for a refund? Yes he did but he was stating outrageous claims such as the watch was not all original and not in fact true to the year per serial number. Also brought in religion as my name is christian and he is a "Good Christian" Really loopy.. this was about 100 days AFTER he received the watch from me!
Why did he believe this?
2) Did you have a chance to object to the chargeback request? There is usually an appeal period with the credit card company. Yes I did, I provided evidence to paypal which they claimed was saved as evidence to the CC Company including all correspondence
Has the chargeback claim been resolved by the credit card company? I assume so, given that you have the watch back. When did he send the watch back?
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Yeah big lesson learned here. A lot of times I have no problem selling to buyers with little or no feedback under the impression I was protected via paypal.
Funny how the paypal rep said nothing after I replayed the scenario to them as ME being the buyer and screwing other people over.
 

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He took your watch and your money. Does that not make him a thief? Isn't theft illegal? Is this not a matter for the police?
 

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This has nothing to do with paypal, and everything to do with the credit card company. If the payment had been made in cash through paypal, nothing would have come out of it.

And please stop with this "sellers are not protected" nonsense; for every sellers who get caught in fraudulent activities like this, there are a hundred buyers paying for stuff they either plainly never get, or fraudulently described.
 

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Stories like this are why I really haven't sold many watches online... :-(
 

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Paypal made 7.8 BILLION dollars in 2014. Why couldn't they suck up this expense (at least until the item is returned to the seller in the same condition it was sent out in) if a credit card company jacks them after their 90 day period expires?
 

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Anyone else think there's a market for a more seller-oriented service similar to paypal? There are clauses in the paypal TOC that for all intents and purposes say a buyer can BS there way into a return no matter what. Even as a buyer, I think that's overboard for lower volume sellers.
 

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I guess it's because paypal is out $5000 since the credit card company took it from them. So they dump it on me, the seller to repay them.

Brent: He did return the watch eventually and man he must have worn that thing everywhere including lawn work. Must be nice to borrow a watch that long
That's a bummer! What was the watch, by the way?
 
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