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Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 3

350678 Views 4659 Replies 372 Participants Last post by  steros
This is a continuation of the "Q&A Expertise thread; Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2".

https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/q-expertise-thread-watch-legit-franken-part-2-a-4514699.html

Q&A Expertise thread part 1 can be found here: https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/q-expertise-thread-watch-legit-franken-894887.html
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I posted this on the Komandirskie thread, but it seems of late no one is showing any so I'll post here. This is supposed to be an NOS 341248. It comes with box and passport which matches the caseback. But bezel and seconds hand are different from the catalog, so double checking here. Thanks!

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Is this Luch right? It looks like it's made of quality Luch parts but not sure if the chrome case goes with that dial, the dial goes with those hands, while the movement is quite nice but actually goes with anything. Thanks!

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no soviet watches have 2 numbers.
Then you can see 2 bridges beveled and 1 stepped. its a collection of parts from at least 3 watches
View attachment 15866430 View attachment 15866432
Thanks. I thought I was beginning to get the hang of this, but its clear there is a whole other level :)
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Found this Kirovskie that I thought looked good (unless as often the case I missed something), my only question being the crown / stem / movement assembly is crooked and would appreciate thoughts. Wrong crown, bad servicing?

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This small size Big Zero has a movement that apparently has no markings, but if you highly magnify the photo I think one can barely make out the traces of the Raketa quality mark. There may be other subtle things going on here too. Opinions as always very much appreciated.

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While big zero's aren't exactly my area of expertise, i think that's the wrong case for a big Zero. (Or at least not the standard)

Also, that little bit of gunked up oil on the crown wheel doesn't bode well either.
This is actually a small size round case style. Slightly rare if I'm not mistaken, and I've wanted one for quite awhile. The dial is slightly tweaked, with pointed triangles and more rounded indices as compared to the cushion case. But these are tough and you can always miss something. So I very much appreciate your and @Odessa200 feedback. What really threw me though was the unmarked movement. I was also thinking it was a transition watch but wasn't really sure. Thanks @Odessa200 for that! It's kind of an amazing artifact, you can really see the confusion of the era play out in it. Raketa took the time to remove the SU marking from the movement, which makes sense, but they also strangely removed the calibre information too, as if the country change would somehow mean you don't know the calibre number too! But for all that no one was going to waste a good stock dial regardless of what was printed on it! Please correct me if I've overreached on my interpretation here.

As to how well it will run :rolleyes:
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the removal of the caliber was just cost cutting. Every operation adds to the cost. And you need to have someone to do it. During that time people were abandoning their jobs (that struggled to pay) in favor of taking a short trip to Turkey, buy some merchandise, bring it back in a few bags and sell on the street.

aside from that, finding a ratchet wheel with the stamp is not that hard but I would leave it as os. Nice watch. I do not have it but I suspect it may be better than the more traditional Zero. At least I like this shape better.
You understand now you are on the hook for writing that book on Soviet watch history right? Otherwise well meaning people like me will continue to spout nonsense and muck everything up :) Still an interesting artifact, to think money was so tight that even stamping a calibre number was too much. I agree, I would not change a thing on it, other than to maintain it.
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...It's a pity that some senior members with vast collections lost interest in this thread, as well as F10. I don't blame them, the question "is my Big Zero original" is getting a bit old.
While it wasn't that way for me, a Big Zero for many is a start on a long journey. My interests extend way beyond the usual suspects (Copernicus, Big Zero, etc.) though since I'm starting out I'm happy to pick up an example. But like @mroatman I'm really in love with these wonderful old dress watches. However they do seem hard to get in good unadulterated condition. I don't have the watch restoration skills to take a bunch of correct parts and turn them into something beautiful and correct, nor will I anytime soon. Thanks to @Odessa200 and a few others here I'm getting a great education. That kind of patient mentorship is vastly appreciated, and it would be great if some other senior members would come and help. While the old threads on these topics are important reads, it would even help to point them out, as they can easily get buried until someone resurrects them. For people to move past a Big Zero the mentorship is important and requires patience, and perhaps some have forgotten that.

I would suggest for the most popular starter models we put a sticky up top and point people to it so they can get into the hang of doing their own identification, and then perhaps ask if something subtle doesn't match. For example, if you want to ask about a Big Zero, start here and read this:


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Here's a Pobeda that seems kind of interesting. I found a dial and handset match from the @mroatman collection, but do they go with a white chrome case? Case and crown seem to look right, but is the caseback correct? Movement is Petrodovorets but is that the right one?

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I came across this Luch which looks pretty nice, but I'm not sure about the handset, can't seem to match it up with anything. Thanks as always for the help.

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I believe this type of dial was made with simple stick hands (for plain dials like this) and with the hands as this watch (for colorful dial variations). But I do not think gilded hands match the chromed case anyway. In golden case I could accept a possibility. Or these hands just look yellow but they are chromed???
the rest of the watch is good. Movement marches the dial (timewise).
They are not gilt, but are as you say from a colored dial watch, I attach a link to a photo from @mroatman collection. Once you said that, then I understood what to look for. Pity, rest of the watch is really nice, I just don't have the skills to buy it and then find the right handset. Thanks as always.

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Since we're on the subject, I came across this one that seems to be ok. It looks like it was decontaminated too, but please let me know if you think the folks who typically sell this sort of thing actually get that right.

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looks good
If you don't mind, to further my education, see if I can draw a picture of the analysis here and let me know if I understand. Does the missing date stamp mean the movement was produced during the war? Did this type of watch dial have its lume cleaned off, and the hands switched out in a canonical way at some point so that this becomes a correct type or are cathedral hands the original type? Or were the dial and hands made this way from the beginning? Does a 7 jeweled movement with no date stamp, dial with these hands and no lume tell you that this is a war time watch (with the bent lug in this case for good measure) that most likely has all parts truly original to the watch? Thanks as always.
Hello comrades. I apparently missed the Type 1 section of this thread. I'm a bit disappointed that my previous inquiry didn't work out but I'm curious about this one. The hands seem right from the catalogs that I've read about. I've bought from this seller before and they claim that this type 1 is completely original but I value everyone's opinions here as you know more than me. I'm primarily concerned with the crown. Do later (mid '50s) Type 1s have different crowns than the earlier "onion" crowns? Or has the crown been replaced? It also seems to be missing a couple of screws in the movement. Would these be replaceable? Does this devalue the piece a bit?

I've realized that I've asked many questions but I really appreciate everyone's feedback. I strive to learn. Many thanks!


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I believe the hands are wrong, please see my post above, but I am also trying to learn more! Also, always check @mroatman collection before you buy, most of the basic cosmetic questions can be answered by having a look first. The movements though have subtitles, check these threads:



Though I see you posted there, I'll put this here anyway:

I hope this will help. My understanding is that these dials are old re-prints or old 'repair dils'. Your was made to be later lumed. Mine is not lume version. Maybe lume was washed away from yours. The hamds are the correct for non-lume variant. View attachment 15964848
Thank you for this. Do you have any idea why some movements have a date stamp and others do not?
i think hands are right for ZChZ for this time period
Apologies, I tried and meant well but really have a long way to go.
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I was wondering where these dials were coming from. This hobby is amazing, to try to explain to someone in a more prosperous country that given what would seem the relatively small sums involved it still pays to create and sell a fake dial for a bastardized Soviet watch. 3 USD to make what looks like a pretty nice dial, just amazing.
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This looks really great. But is it a redial and relume job? Or did I potentially miss anything?

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relume: maybe. Especially hands look a bit new. But nicely done.
dial is authentic.
movement: wrong ratchet wheel and balance and balance bridge
In your opinion on balance is it worth buying anyway? Do you think the watch historically reflects someone's upgrades/repairs? Or someone put this package together? This is a hard question, but if you have an intuition about it I'd consider it worthwhile hearing.
if the price is right I would buy it. Nice watch. Switching the balance can be done and it will be a great watch!
Thanks very much. Do you know what year the factory switched over to this later type of balance? Does this kind of change represent a typical repair back in the day if something happened to the balance spring? Ditto the ratchet wheel? Just trying to get a sense if it could be an old repair(s). When it comes to movements, I think there's an interesting fine line between conserving fine old repairs as part of the past in a well preserved watch, vs something that's just been bastardized and should be undone.
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