WatchUSeek Watch Forums banner
1 - 15 of 15 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
20 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi all,

I recently purchased a nice vympel (even if the dial is slightly damaged) and I was wondering about its authenticity...

Watch Analog watch Fashion accessory Watch accessory Jewellery


Indeed, the inscription on the dial (along with all the informations I got on this forum and collector's website) tells us that it was made in the First Moscow Watch Factory in Kirova and thus it should have the old 1MWF logo:
(copyright netgrafik.ch)

However, the logo on the 2209 caliber, is the old Luch one :-s:
Drawing Sketch Font Illustration Artwork
(copyright netgrafik.ch)

I was not able to find the time period when this Luch logo was replaced by the newone with the wave, so I was wondering if there has been some vympel "officialy" fitted with such caliber...
So I'm asking the luch/poljot/vympel and russian factory specialists who seems to be numerous on this forum: What do you think?
Thanks in advance for your help!

Jasposiris
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,811 Posts
Welcome to the forum, Jasposiris!

The case looks pretty good compared to the dial, so it could be that someone replaced the Luch dial in order to fetch a few extra dollars. The timeline would be Vympel-Poljot-Luch, and more than a few years had passed between the Vympel and Luch versions of the watch, therefore this scenario is a bit of a stretch.. You can pick up a nice Luch for $50US, whereas a minty Vympel would be well over $100US.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,752 Posts
I know there were some watch factories in Russia around this time (limit of my specialty!) but very doubtful that the Luch movement was put in the Vimpel inside one of them, in my opinion. More likely a repair by owner(s). My information is that the First Moscow logo was used until '63 and the Luch logo was seen on watch movements from the Minsk factory starting in '56 so there may have been some overlap. See here:

russian_logos

The Vimpel back should have "concentric circle pattern" instead of overall slight brush usually found on the Luchs and occasionally found on Vimpels as a replacement.

Nice pickup! You can shop for a First Moscow 2209 movement and do a swap if you so desire.

Also this was a good post, Jasposiris, because you did some homework and brought something to the party! Thanks.

The back may help you decide if it might be a re-dialed Luch or not as suggested by Polmax3133.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
644 Posts
Agreed, the original Vympel I believe was produced exclusively at 1st Moscow watch factory. This dial you have there even says made at 1MWF (as do all the Vympels I think). The Minsk produced movement would not have been originally housed in the Vympel. However, the only significant difference between movements will be the factory stamp. There are very minor differences to be found during the history of the 2209 movement on things like the balance regulating lever. You can be pleased to have a classic Soviet watch with as good as correct insides, which can be fairly easily replaced if need be.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
20 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 · (Edited)
Thank you all for your answers!
Unfortunately, I was also thinking that the movement has been replaced...

Actually to answer you schnurrp, I have been reading lots of your posts, Seele's post and plenty of thin russian watch lovers on this forum for a while, so I had great teachers!

I don't have the watch with me today so I will post tonight about the stainless steel back. This is a very interesting info as I have never read anything about this.
The case in itself seems ok (the back is actually old and the plating has been removed at several places) and it is the AU20 version with the old fashion lugs:
Brass Door handle Metal Architecture Handle
and not the more recent ones: Brass Audio equipment Metal


By the way Tarquin, would you have more info on the differences between the different 2209 movement? Of course, I know the logo difference (along with the 2209 mention that sometimes disappear and the "1mwf" on one of the wheel), and I also noticed some changes in the metal quality (the latest SU with "twenty three jewels written" on it seem to be quite of poor quality) but I never really looked at the regulating parts...

Jasposiris
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,752 Posts
Look at 1315 here: Welcome to USSR Time!. This is a watch similar to yours. Notice the concentric circle pattern on the back. This is the authentic type back, I believe (without the inscription, of course).

It's been my experience that all of these movements are of uniformly high quality. They certainly were very popular.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
644 Posts
Thank you all for your answers!

By the way Tarquin, would you have more info on the differences between the different 2209 movement? Of course, I know the logo difference (along with the 2209 mention that sometimes disappear and the "1mwf" on one of the wheel), and I also noticed some changes in the metal quality (the latest SU with "twenty three jewels written" on it seem to be quite of poor quality) but I never really looked at the regulating parts...

Jasposiris
Really, there is hardly a difference. Almost not worth mentioning. If I get time tomorrow evening I will try to take some pictures of different variants but really I couldn't tell you much about them. I have not noticed any difference in build / material quality between all the 2209s I own.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,752 Posts
Here is a minor difference I've noticed between a First Moscow 2209 and a Luch 2209 (Luch on the right). The third wheels (I think) are different as you can see and the plate below the third wheel which holds the pair of gears that seem to be taking the place of the central wheel has a different hole size to receive the third wheel.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
10 Posts
Hi friends
My name is Anton and I am from Bulgaria, here with us last year there have been many such watches and many watchmakers who have them repaired.

This mechanism is the problem with central Rubin (central jevels), as you will see pictures of a subject central ruby stone missing.

Watch Analog watch Pocket watch Fashion accessory Watch accessory


Watch Analog watch Watch accessory Fashion accessory Jewellery


Changing a ruby (jevels) is a precise and complicated task and most local watchmakers preferred to replace the entire upper bridge by using spare part from another watch with a dial or damaged frame.

Personally, I'm facing a similar dilemma in time, change the stone or change all upper bridge.

These are not fake or invalid watches are simply watches repaired with replacement parts.

Here with us to have many such Vimpel movements (gold plated 23J) with a logo 1МЧЗ (1MWF) and ЛУЧ (LUCH) logo. These are all Poljot de Luxe 23J аll Luch 23J.
 
G

·
Changing a ruby (jevels) is a precise and complicated task and most local watchmakers preferred to replace the entire upper bridge by using spare part from another watch with a dial or damaged frame.

Personally, I'm facing a similar dilemma in time, change the stone or change all upper bridge.
Hi Anton,

In fact, any (even a low-skilled one) watchmaker is able to change a friction fit ruby/jewel in a watch, that's not rocket science, and it's a 10 mn job, not counting disassembling/reassembling the parts.

If a local/russian doesn't have the ruby pressing tool or a new jewel, he can turn a new brass bushing on any lathe. Quick job as well there.

If the jewel is an old burnished one (not found in russian watches), now that's another story, a not so easy and time-consuming job :-!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,544 Posts
I've often wondered about replacing friction-fit jewels. My question: is a special tool needed? Assuming that one has a suitable replacement jewel, can the old one be removed (and the new one fitted) using a round-ended rod (eg, a pin-pusher)? Does the new jewel press in to the limit, or does it have to be pressed in by a controlled depth?

Paul
 
G

·
I've often wondered about replacing friction-fit jewels. My question: is a special tool needed? Assuming that one has a suitable replacement jewel, can the old one be removed (and the new one fitted) using a round-ended rod (eg, a pin-pusher)? Does the new jewel press in to the limit, or does it have to be pressed in by a controlled depth?
The most used tool is the Seitz set. There's always a few sold on Ebay. To give you an idea, I paid mine (outside ebay) about €200 in top condition, with a real micrometer added. On Ebay it's often cheaper (less than USD 150), but you never know how it's been previously treated. Seitz still makes this tool, but Favorite, and other brands were sold in the past.

You have to control the depth, yes, it could be 0.01 mm more here, or 0.05 mm less there, it depends of the wheel. Experience makes it easier to tell.
With the new jewel and a pin-pusher you'll sure break the jewel, or you'll scratch something.

This link could be interesting for you:
http://ihc185.infopop.cc/helphand/pdf/seitz.pdf
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,544 Posts
Thanks, [misterpeter]. I think for now I will leave the jewels in place (except for the antishock jewels, which are easy).

Paul
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10 Posts
Here many watchmakers do not want to create any problems, just replace the whole axle and they resolved the issue.
There are many watchmakers who would only replaced the damaged but Rubin wanted to say I found replacement parts only.

PS
Today I discovered that there is difference in the central plate (bridge), below the dial, and between Vimpel 23J Poljot de Luxe 23J. I made no photos unfortunately. Can not replace the central plates, there cadets attaches circulation difference.

Toni
 
1 - 15 of 15 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top