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Discussion Starter #1
Dear all,

I recently decided to get a Tissot Veloci-T Automatic watch, as it's the most affordable, good looking (to my taste), Swiss, automatic chronograph I could find. And does it look gorgeous in the metal... wow, it looks like it could cost way more.

To cut a long story short, after receiving a faulty Veloci-T I ended up getting two working ones.

However, while they both seem to be reasonably accurate as watches, the chronograph part of them is too fast. Compared to internet time and a quartz watch, one of the Veoci-T is too fast by just over a second per hour. The other one is much better, still faster than my references, but drifting ahead by around a second in 5 hours (all this is as seen on the big central seconds hand).

But the strange thing is that the minute hand and the small seconds hand (pertinent to the watch, not the chronograph section), are nigh on perfect on both watches.

So to me, being basically a beginner and somewhat ignorant about watches, this looks odd and raises a couple of questions:

- Is it normally possible for a watch to be very accurate, and yet for the chronograph function on that very same watch to be significantly too fast? (That would imply largely independent mechanisms, does that make sense from a watchmaking point of view?)

- Could it be that the chronograph movement has been magnetized, while the main watch movement hasn't?

- Logically, shouldn't the chronograph section be more accurate than the watch section? I mean, the chronograph is supposed to be a chronometer substitute for precise measurements, whereas the watch is for looser, at a glance timechecking.

I realise that it's a C01.211 movement and it's not going to rival the proper automatic movements that some of you guys have on luxury watches. And the Veloci-T is not a COSC certified chronometer. But still, the fastest of my two Veloci-T has a chronograph that's outside Tissot's normal tolerance for a mechanical watch. This is somewhat odd i think... isn't it?

And the Tissot website does not mention tolerances for the chronographs, just for mechanical watches in general.

NB: Both watches were manually wound to get them started, and rested on a flat surface most of the time, on their side, crown up. When I picked them up I held both at the same time for comparison purposes, so they were treated consistently.
 

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Are you running the chrono all the time? It's not for running all the time.
No... the chrono function is part of the whole watch so it is not magnetized.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Well yes, i ran the chronographs over several hours, because the only way to prove a drift is to allow some time. And the chronograph includes a six hour dial, so this suggests that it can be used over that kind of time range, even if it's not usually what happens.

The result after approximately six hour confirmed what I could detect after about one to two hours.
 

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The chrono module should keep time the same as the rest of the watch, but activating the chrono can change the accuracy by decreasing the beat amplitude of the balance wheel, especially if the power reserve is low and the watch is sensitive to isochronism.
 

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The chrono module should keep time the same as the rest of the watch, but activating the chrono can change the accuracy by decreasing the beat amplitude of the balance wheel, especially if the power reserve is low and the watch is sensitive to isochronism.
Would you please disclosure some source of the said chrono decreasing amplitude of escapement?
 

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You only have one movement, there is no chronograpgh and a main movement. And yes, accuracy can be different as well as the power reserve.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Ok, erm... I don't understand "sensitive to isochronism", sorry but I'm not that informed. The power reserve, well... they are new out of the box, but i wound them 32 times each, which according to Tissot should get them going for over 40 hours if memory serves, and swung them about a little bit at the beginning. I did not wear them because I have not adjusted the bracelets.

But you stated that the chrono module should keep time the same as the rest of the watch, and clearly this isn't happening here.

I read elsewhere that there is a breaking in period for mechanical watches, I wonder if that's indeed the case here.
 

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In most mechanical chronograph watches, the running of the chronograph has an effect on the running of the time-keeping aspect of the watch; both are powered by the same mainspring after all.
The accuracy of these chronographs is also dependent on the accuracy of the watch/movement as both are again, regulated by the same balance wheel.
i.e the chronograph will typically display the same rate of deviance as the rest of the watch.

You mention that with the chronograph running, you detected a deviance of maybe 1 second every 5 hours. Extrapolating from this gives an approximate deviation of 4-5 seconds every 24 hours.
That means your watch is running at about 4-5 seconds every day which isn't too shabby and pretty much typical for a "basic" Swiss movement watch.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
In most mechanical chronograph watches, the running of the chronograph has an effect on the running of the time-keeping aspect of the watch; both are powered by the same mainspring after all.
The accuracy of these chronographs is also dependent on the accuracy of the watch/movement as both are again, regulated by the same balance wheel.
i.e the chronograph will typically display the same rate of deviance as the rest of the watch.

You mention that with the chronograph running, you detected a deviance of maybe 1 second every 5 hours. Extrapolating from this gives an approximate deviation of 4-5 seconds every 24 hours.
That means your watch is running at about 4-5 seconds every day which isn't too shabby and pretty much typical for a "basic" Swiss movement watch.
Thanks (and thanks to all of you for the replies).

Well, the best of the two is indeed not bad at all, but the fastest one seems really too fast...
 

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The chrono module should keep time the same as the rest of the watch, but activating the chrono can change the accuracy by decreasing the beat amplitude of the balance wheel, especially if the power reserve is low and the watch is sensitive to isochronism.
Your comment is irrelevant because while running the chrono, if the amplitude it impacted, that will affect both chrono and watch equally. OP's is noting they are not equally affected.
 

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Your comment is irrelevant because while running the chrono, if the amplitude it impacted, that will affect both chrono and watch equally. OP's is noting they are not equally affected.
That's exactly what I said in the post you quoted, what's your point and the relevance of your comment?


OP, if you're running the chrono and the time on the chrono deviates from the time on the watch, it may be an alignment issue with the gears or a broken tooth or something like that.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
That's exactly what I said in the post you quoted, what's your point and the relevance of your comment?


OP, if you're running the chrono and the time on the chrono deviates from the time on the watch, it may be an alignment issue with the gears or a broken tooth or something like that.
Yes, that's exactly it, they deviate, certainly on one of the two watches. So there is something wrong with that one. :-(

Thanks anyway.
 

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Discussion Starter #14 (Edited)
Although i'm running another test, and it gets even stranger... too early to tell, but I may get different results in the second test. I read somewhere that it took a while for a movement to break in, for lubrication to get around and such...

I can see how people get sucked into spending money on watches... I just bought watches that are mid-range, yet very very far away from the luxury or prestige ranges. And already I wonder if I spent too little.

Another one I liked the look of is the Tag Heuer Link Chronograph, but that's at least four times more expensive. And subjectively, on looks alone, I prefer the Tissot! But I'd like to feel I can trust the movement, for reasonable accuracy and hopefully a long life.

I went to the Breitling website and configured a Chronomat the way I'd want it and it cost more than my car. :-( (and it's a nice car).

And I really love the look of some Vacheron Constantin but... erm...
 

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I understand about the watch costing more than your car.
To alleviate this problem, may I suggest you buy a Rolls Royce
or Bentley.....I think that will solve the problem......;-)
Keep collecting ......And good luck...:-!
 

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Discussion Starter #16
I understand about the watch costing more than your car.
To alleviate this problem, may I suggest you by a Rolls Royce
or Bentley.....I think that will solve the problem......;-)
Keep collecting ......And good luck...:-!
Good idea! ;-)

I hear there is a Jaeger-Lecoultre with a touch glass to open car doors. It only works with an Aston Martin though, good job I like these cars. Nice accessory to the watch.
 

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Any mechanical, balance driven chronograph will, at best, be accurate to within 3-4 seconds per day. Watches costing 10 times more and 100 times more will still all be subject to isochronism (speed variation based on mainspring winding state, typically slightly slower when fully wound and faster when power reserve approaches zero), positional variation (vertical, up down, etc), and temperature variation ( this last is the only one which also affects quartz mechanisms). If you want subsecond accuracy per day, quartz regulation is the only option. I think Spring Drive chronographs might meet his requirement. Typical quartz mechanisms will be around 5-10 seconds per MONTH and high accuracy quartz (HAQ) 5-10 seconds per YEAR. If you want history get a mechanical, if you want the most accurate timekeeping, get a quartz watch.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Any mechanical, balance driven chronograph will, at best, be accurate to within 3-4 seconds per day. Watches costing 10 times more and 100 times more will still all be subject to isochronism (speed variation based on mainspring winding state, typically slightly slower when fully wound and faster when power reserve approaches zero), positional variation (vertical, up down, etc), and temperature variation ( this last is the only one which also affects quartz mechanisms). If you want subsecond accuracy per day, quartz regulation is the only option. I think Spring Drive chronographs might meet his requirement. Typical quartz mechanisms will be around 5-10 seconds per MONTH and high accuracy quartz (HAQ) 5-10 seconds per YEAR. If you want history get a mechanical, if you want the most accurate timekeeping, get a quartz watch.
Thank you Enkidu, I do understand that difference. I have a T-Touch Expert for accuracy, it was my first "nice" watch, I got it a couple of months ago and I found it difficult to choose between the quartz watch with altimeter etc, and the beautiful automatic that was the Veloci-T. I promised myself i'd get both and now I have. :)

My concern was to see that the Veloci-T is within specs, and in my second test the two Veloci-T performed better than in the first.

And the difference in drift between the watch function and the chronograph function was really puzzling.

Even my quartz Swatch is probably more accurate, it is indeed history that I wanted this time, and I realise that the Veloci-T is nothing special in terms of mechanical watches and some people look down on the movement, but to me it is a first step and a great looker. I feel good when I see it, it's a treat, simple as that. :)
 

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The mechanical watch will be within specs if it is running within 15-20 seconds a day on average. This is not a COSC-certified chronometer, but even that will only run within around 5 seconds/day plus or minus. Any of these might be regulated better in a specific case, but that's what you can expect.

Don't draw any conclusions until you wear it on your arm. The way you move, the way it sits, and the degree to which you keep it fully wound will affect its daily rate. Some watches are perfect on the wrist but run slow on a winder, for example.

The chronograph seconds hand and the running seconds hand are coupled together when the chronograph is started, and cannot deviate from each other in a watch that is even remotely properly adjusted. It would have to be bad enough for the gears to occasionally skip a tooth or become disengaged for the chronograph seconds hand to drift away from the running seconds hand when the chronograph is started. That is hard to imagine. But, often, the slack needed by a lateral engagement gear (which is the most common engagement mechanism) will cause the chronograph seconds hand to jump around a bit as its running. I don't think observing it being one second off will be easy to detect. Typically, the chronograph seconds hand wheel has 120 teeth, so it's not designed to be more precise than half a second in any case. A watch like the Zenith Striking Tenth, which has a central seconds hand that makes a full circle every ten seconds when the chronograph is running, would do better (but at an order of magnitude more expense). Vertical clutches do better in this aspect, though really it's not an issue for most applications.

Try this: Start the chronograph on a fully wound watch (40 turns ought to do it--automatics cannot be overwound because they have a slip clutch to prevent it) when the running seconds hand (in its sub-dial) is right at 12 o"clock (straight up). Put the watch on your wrist or on a winder. Look at it no sooner than in a couple of days. There is something terribly wrong if the chronograph seconds hand and the running seconds hand don't continue to stay synchronized. My bet is that they will both still be pointed in the same direction as they turn.

A chronograph adds more turning stuff to the movement when started, so it will use a bit more energy. It probably won't affect the rate, but the watch may stop a bit sooner if it is allowed to run down.

Rick "seeing confusion over terms" Denney
 

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Thank you Enkidu, I do understand that difference. I have a T-Touch Expert for accuracy, it was my first "nice" watch, I got it a couple of months ago and I found it difficult to choose between the quartz watch with altimeter etc, and the beautiful automatic that was the Veloci-T. I promised myself i'd get both and now I have. :)

My concern was to see that the Veloci-T is within specs, and in my second test the two Veloci-T performed better than in the first.

And the difference in drift between the watch function and the chronograph function was really puzzling.

Even my quartz Swatch is probably more accurate, it is indeed history that I wanted this time, and I realise that the Veloci-T is nothing special in terms of mechanical watches and some people look down on the movement, but to me it is a first step and a great looker. I feel good when I see it, it's a treat, simple as that. :)
You're welcome. I think the accuracy and variation you are observing are not at all unusual for a watch and well within specs. The 7750 is a well designed movement and can be very finely adjusted, but will still suffer from isochronism and positional and temperature variations. Sounds like you're enjoying your watches, and that's what's important.
 
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