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Discussion Starter #1
I've seen a lot of talk about these new movements and there seems to be a lot of opinion going around. I'm not wanting to make this a rant thread. I'm just hoping to get some facts from experts to hopefully make us more educated and help us draw our own conclusions about these things. I also want this to be specific to the C07 stuff and don't want to confuse things by talking about the SISTEM/Swissmatic movements, which to me are different products with a different philosophy and purpose.

A few questions...

What exactly was changed on the 2824 to make it into the C07?

What, if any, are the differences between the C07 movements (Powermatic 80 vs. H-10 vs. any others)?

How do the changes impact the serviceability and potential longevity of these movements?

What is a free-sprung balance and what is its benefit?

I know Tissot still has a few models (Visodate, Automatics III, Le Locle small seconds) that come with the old fashioned ETA movements. Is this because the Powermatic 80 is date only? Are there any other current models from Swatch Group that haven't been transitioned (yet)?

Does it look like the plan is to phase out the 2824/2825/2836/etc. entirely in favor of the C07? If so, what does this do to the serviceability of those movements long term?

That's probably enough for now. I'll probably think of more questions as we go.
 

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Discussion Starter #2
OK so I did some of my own digging and found some info.

The C07 is based on the 2824 with a few optimizations in common. They all have been slowed down from 4Hz to 3Hz. They also all have smaller barrel arbors to accommodate more mainspring, and the mainspring itself is different. And they all have free-sprung balances (not sure what this is) without standard regulators. However, beyond this, there are three different versions with more specific characteristics:

C07.1XX - This version has the above improvements plus a synthetic escapement for lower friction, thus requiring less energy from the mainspring. The "Powermatic 80" movements in the latest Tissot and Certina models are based on this. There's a few different versions based on complications, including day/dates. For some reason, though, those haven't replaced the 2836's in the Tissot line-up (yet).

C07.6XX - This version also has the same common improvements, but comes with a standard jeweled escapement. The Hamilton H-10 and H-40 movements are based on this version.

C07.8XX - This version adds a silicon hairspring. I'm not sure if it has the synthetic or standard escapement. I think the "Powermatic 80 Silicum" and some "Powermatic 80 Chronometer" movements are based on this, which would imply it has the same synthetic escapement, though I could be wrong.


By all means correct me if any of this is wrong.

The other questions still apply.
 

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Gee, where do I start?

The C07 movement is based on the ETA 2824-2 with some changes. There are different models of C07 that have better or worse characteristics (or at least I've been led to conclude from other discussions).

I have two Tissot watches, a Seastar and a Luxury with C07 movements. I've had the Seastar for maybe five years now but I keep a handful of watches in rotation so it's seen maybe six months of actual running. I have had no trouble with either watch but they certainly aren't the most accurate in my watch box, maybe gaining 15 s/d in the Seastar's case, more like +5 s/d on the Luxury.

In the case of my C07's, the first difference is the mainspring arbor (and perhaps the mainspring). The arbor is smaller in diameter allowing for more turns on the barrel from unwound to full wind. I can't say how much as I haven't taken either apart yet.

The second is the regulator (balance wheel, hairspring, cock assy.). The rate is 21,600 bph as opposed to 28,800 for an ETA 2824-2. The noticeable difference is that the second hand steps six times per second as opposed to eight, so it's not quite as smooth. The balance is also free-sprung, meaning there are no regulator pins or regulator corrector, only a stud support to attach the outer end of the hairspring. This eliminates the regulator pins as a source of mischief and (potentially) makes the spring more linear, for less amplitude dependent rate variation, one of the causes for positional variation.

Regulation is accomplished via two screws that fit into slots in the balance wheel spokes. The heads have a flat on one side that makes for an imbalance that you can adjust by turning the screw. So a free-sprung balance means there is no regulator corrector to adjust the rate; it's adjusted as I'll describe below.

The third difference (and this is speculation) is the escape wheel is fabricated from silicon, which is supposed to lower the friction, allowing for a higher reduction between the barrel and escape wheel. I haven't verified that this is the case (different ratio) and ETA hasn't published any Tech Sheet so verification would involve disassembly and counting teeth. Some day I will service both but there's no need yet.

All of these changes result in an 80-hour power reserve. I haven't measured the reserve but I can confirm that you can put the watch on the dresser Friday night and it's still running Monday morning.

As I mentioned above, you can make a coarse adjustment by turning the screws. I've read on other posts that it only takes a tiny amount of turning to affect the rate; one poster said that he gave them a nudge and it gained 15 s/d. It appears that the screws sit in slots to allow an even greater range of adjustment but as I've never tried, I can't verify that they even move in the slots, or perhaps the poster was moving them in the slots, resulting in the sensitivity. Since there are only two spokes and two adjustment screws, you cannot use them to adjust poise errors in the perpendicular direction and you have to be careful to make identical adjustments or you will screw up the poise in the parallel direction.

The factory says they use a laser to both poise the wheel and adjust the rate. On my watches (both with display backs) you can see a small short groove on the rim of the balance wheel. I've also read a patent that alludes to calculating the poise and rate error by timing in positions an applying some math. I can't remember who took out the patent but my speculation is this is what they are doing and have established how much laser is needed for a given correction (wouldn't that be a b!+ch to keep in calibration).

As I mentioned at the start, there are flavors of C07. I've heard of and seen drawings of plastic pallet forks that may have come from the System51 development and seen bad reviews of their longevity. Perhaps this is why my watches have traditional forks, because the plastic ones gave ETA a black eye. I've also seen speculation that the hairspring is silicon but I have my doubts due to the cost. Another question is what they lubricate the pallet stones with, see below.

Unless you have a plastic pallet fork, I don't see any dramatic difference in longevity. My weak spot would be the mainspring coiling more tightly, but modern alloy springs can take much more than they are put through in a standard design. Perhaps time will prove men wrong, but I haven't heard of a broken one to this point.

I don't see the C07 replacing the 2824-2, there's too much demand in the industry for it. I see it as a bit player to allow some Swatch companies to differentiate themselves. But both of my examples were very inexpensive (less than $500 GM) so they are certainly not selling it as a luxury item (despite the watches name). I do know that some Tissot models with the C07 are available as COSC, so it's a solid design. Also in the 2824-2, the COSC models have some different parts, glucydur balance wheels, Incabloc shock protectors and monocrystalline pallet stones. One would think that the COSC models of the C07 would have the same changes. My non-COSC C07's have novodiac shock protectors, that's pretty obvious; it's hard to say what the balance wheel is made from as it's dramatically different in design than the 2824-2. I'd have to look at my pallet stones under a microscope to determine if they are mono or poly and that requires uncasing, so no-go.

BTW, poking around the net, I found a good discussion on Watch Repair Talk that had some pictures. I have to qualify the above by stating that I think mine are standard style in the pallet fork and escapement but I'll have to take a hard look under the microscope tonight. Here are a couple of interesting snips from the discussion:

System51 Escapement.JPG

System51 Escapement Tech Sheet.JPG

So that answers the lube question, at least for the System51 components. Moebius TH7 can be found at the usual suspects for the usual price.

BTW, after posting I saw the post you put up while I was writing this diatribe. Interesting and I'll have a look at mine to see the reference and what light they shed on your data. From what you wrote, I probably have the plastic version.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Thanks for explaining the "free sprung" terminology. I knew they all lacked regulator pins, but I wasn't sure if maybe that was just one aspect or if it was just coincidental. It sounds like it pretty much just means no regulator pin, though.

I guess it's encouraging that you can still regulate a free sprung balance, but it sounds like it's far more complicated and risky than the familiar "+/-" lever on standard balances.

And yes, I can see how getting rid of the pin would help with positional variance, so that's a good thing. I guess that helps make up for the sacrifice in precision from the lower beat rate. Enough to earn a Chronometer rating anyway. Are there any other 3Hz Chronometers out there?

I'm an amateur tinkerer at best, so while I'm perfectly comfortable timegraphing and regulating my own watches, I admit the free sprung balance will probably scare me off from buying one. I'd go nuts if I got one of these and it ran at -4spd or something and I couldn't fix it.
 

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I took a look at both under the microscope and they are both C07.111 and both have plastic parts. Hard to tell without removing the band. Once the band was off it was pretty obvious even with my cheaters and a 10 plate OptiVisor.

Well, I'll keep that in mind regarding service intervals.
 

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I'm an amateur tinkerer at best, so while I'm perfectly comfortable timegraphing and regulating my own watches, I admit the free sprung balance will probably scare me off from buying one. I'd go nuts if I got one of these and it ran at -4spd or something and I couldn't fix it.
Other watches have better solutions. Both my Milgauss and my 9300 Omegas have free sprung balances and are adjustable via small nuts on threaded shafts located on the inside of the rim and pointed inward. The major difficulty is affording the special tool, but adjusting them is a breeze. Since there are four, it also allows for adjusting the poise in either axis. BTW, if you were wondering, poise is the location of the CG with respect to the pivot axis. It is complicated by the fact that it needs to include the CG of the hairspring, which moves as the balance moves. Poise affects positional variation in the pendant positions (PU, PD, PR, PL).
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Thanks for the explanation of poise. I'm learning a lot in this thread!

Would poise also affect beat error?
 

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Would poise also affect beat error?
My understanding of poise is that it has an effect because of the swing or missing swing of a point on the balance wheel. If a wheel has an imbalance and travels through an arc of 180 degrees, then if the imbalance is on the uphill side it will have different effect than if it's on the downhill side. This would affect the beat error, making it swing farther towards the bottom than the top. Keep in mind that what we call amplitude is that from center to one extreme, so a 300 degree amplitude is actually 600 degrees of full travel.

According to the texts, there's an amplitude were poise cancels out, 225 degrees if I remember correctly. However, at this low amplitude, accelerations cause rate errors (looking straight at you, Seiko 7S26) so, at normal amplitudes you have to look at the shadow instead of the substance; the part of the sweep that's missing. If it's located on the top or bottom, it cancels itself but if it's on the upward or downward side, then it affects the beat error (as per my example above) and the rate. Note that this is only an issue in the pendant positions, DU or DD doesn't show any effect.

I know it's hard to grasp, I had to read up and think about it for a while before it hit, and I have a background as a mechanical engineer.

Here's an analogy, much earlier in my career as a manufacturing engineer, we had a vehicle that was spin stabilized and had a solid propellant booster attached to one end. It was centered so the thrust nominally went through the CG, but the mounting surface had to be very square to the spin axis. I asked our dynamics expert where the tolerance came from; wouldn't any error balance out because the spin would average the error? The answer was: the rocket would start burning at some spin theta and stop at another. Unless you could guarantee that the angle would be exactly the same at the beginning and end, there would be some missing or overlapped arc and the net result would be a torque on the vehicle (assuming an error in squareness).

It's that overlap or missing section, in the presence of gravity, that results in poise causing a beat error and an error in rate.
 

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The 80 hour ETA movements have generally be a disappointment.
De-rating the frequency; lengthening and weakening the mainspring; use of composite fork/escape to reduce friction to compensate for reduced power...interesting ideas...but at least with earlier ETA PR80 versions, performance and longevity (as related to service) appear to be sacrificed.
Free-sprung balance is a proven technology...it does not make up for the short-comings of the other modifications.
Silicon hairsprings...are the properties of low-cost units consistent enough to be attractive in consumer grade movements....?....maybe or maybe not yet...
If one is not sufficiently active so that the movement is fully powered when removed from the wrist on Friday, it will not be running and reasonably "on-time" when strapped on your wrist on Monday...so what's the point?
I tend to be accuracy and precision motivated...the 80 hour PR ETAs are not there yet for my interests.
Regards, BG
 

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I find that the rate error is no worse than many of my elabore ETA 2824-2 or Sellita 200-1 movements. The jury is still out on the plastic components. In the best case, I need to get some 9030 and TH7 before I service. Not sure about replacing the mainspring or barrel but my supplier is pretty crafty; I suspect it's only a matter of time and price.
 

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Hi everyone,

I have a question regarding my Hamilton H-10 movement in the Khaki automatic ''Murph''. It makes a clicking sound everytime the rotor moves. It does even if the watch is fully drained of power, so I don't think it's the security over-winding protection mechanism. Is that normal behaviour form this movement? I've never owned one of these before. Thanks a lot in advance.

Stay safe and healthy.

Milo
 

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If one is not sufficiently active so that the movement is fully powered when removed from the wrist on Friday, it will not be running and reasonably "on-time" when strapped on your wrist on Monday...so what's the point?
So I took the opportunity to see how well one of my two Powermatic 80's did off the wrist over the weekend. The movement is a C07.111 in a Tissot Luxury. I wore it all week and saw a rate of about -7 spd for the entire time I was wearing it.

Returning from work Thursday night at eight, I hacked it against my iPhone, wound it fully and placed it PU for the weekend.

This noon (Sunday) I checked it. It was running and had lost 21 seconds. Right now at seven PM, it's still running and at -20 seconds.

Sure, a one-off observation, but I'd say that it's acceptable performance regarding rate when it gets low in it's reserve. I'll do some more observations and post the results.

Update: It stopped this morning at six-thirty for a total power reserve of 82 hours.
 

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I have a question regarding my Hamilton H-10 movement in the Khaki automatic ''Murph''. It makes a clicking sound everytime the rotor moves.
Just saw your post after an update on my end. It's possible that you are hearing the backwards reverser releasing, but unless you are using a stethoscope, I'm skeptical. More likely a broken tooth in the automatic or a loose automatic module. I'd have it looked at in either case.
 

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Another curious observation. A workmate bought his first Swiss Automatic, a Hamilton Khaki with an H-40. I told him once he had it, that I would timegraph it and see how it's doing.

Answer: Very well on rates. Going from memory, on the 1 hour test, it's +4 in DU, +2 in DD and zero in the pendant positions. Not bad at all.

The only curious thing is the amplitude, I did see an occasional spike up to 280 or so, but a typical amplitude was about 240. I was wearing my Tissot Luxury and measured it; resulting in similar performance of about 240. These were DU/DD positions. I'm a little surprised I hadn't noticed this before as I've had the Luxury for several years and the timegrapher almost as long. Can't say I have a good answer for this; my Luxury may be several years old, but his Khaki should be brand new.
 

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I had my Tissot Powermatic 80 PR100 regulated. The results weren't good.

Before: -8spd in all positions

After:
CH (dial up): +6
9H (crown down): -3
6H (crown left): +2

My watchmaker's comments:
1. Plastic escapement
2. Grime inside

I was a bit surprised at the grime. Although I got this Tissot as part of a product exchange with Swatch HK, I was told the exchanged watch was new and my paperwork has no indications to the contrary.

The watchmaker noted no suggestion this watch was a replacement unit in the watch itself, even though I noted the bracelet was stamped "RTO".

But the watchmaker had lots to say about plastic escapements. Essentially saying their were a POS in Cantonese. He claimed he was told reliably by insider that Swatch HK treats the movement as disposable.

15361198


15361203
 

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Does anyone out there have an idea of the lift angle of a C07 with the plastic pallet fork? Calibre Corner says "Unknown". I'm wondering if that's the reason for the low amplitude.

OTOH, my friend with a H-40, which is supposed to have a normal pallet fork, also measured a 240 lift angle in DU/DD. Perhaps it's a side-effect of the longer battery.
 

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OK, now I get the joke. I have been using Roland Ranffts bidfun database and saw "mainspring / battery", thinking they were synonymous. I also thought that I had read the term battery referring to the power source for a mechanical in other archaic sources but googling and looking through my books, I realize I was mistaken (when has that ever happened?).

The funny thing is, I've never looked up a quartz movement in his database so I never saw that the "mainspring / battery" field contains and actual battery. Duh. :(

See how well my signature matches? (You can thank me that you can read my signature).
 

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^^^ OK, I'll bite.

My dreams rarely involve watchmaking but are often much nerdier. The coffee is an essential. The second or third cup, not so much.

Regarding the measurement, I was quite surprised it was so low (I followed the protocol about a full wind and running for an hour), so I checked it several times and also measured my own C07 I had been wearing at the time and got similar results (after following protocol).

I was just curious what the cause of the low amplitude is. I would expect it on my several-years old Tissot Seastar but not on his new H-40. One explanation would be that the mainspring isn't as strong (likely to be true, if not the cause, IMHO) or that the lift angle is something other than 50 degrees.

It would sure be nice if ETA put out some technical information on the movement; I know that those with a Swatch account have it because I've seen some screen snips.

I was hoping someone with access would just tell us the lift angle of the C07.111 based on ETA's documentation. Looking at the plastic pallet fork, I would be very surprised if it matched the 2824-2 lift angle.
 
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