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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Just wondering if there’s another pocket watch enthusiast here who speaks Turkish? I am researching an aspect of the export trade from England to Turkey in the early nineteenth century and have a problem understanding a Turkish word that's cropped up in print.

If you can help, I’ll be extremely grateful – please PM me.

Thanks for reading.

David
 

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nevermind
 

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My neighbor is Turkish, his wife is Turkish, his daugther is Turkish, his sister and brother are Turkish and his parents are Turkish. A lot of people to ask. I do not understand why you are not putting an image of the badly printed word along with your post. Are you afraid that this word might have a bad meaning?

I don't know how you can find help better help through a PM under these circumstances, unless you are not just looking for a Turkish word, but some special advice on watch exports from England to Turkey. Baksheesh translates to bahşiş in Turkish, the currency is Turkish Lira and they are fairly relaxed about fakes and plagiarism, just to throw in a few answers without knowing the question.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Thanks for the replies so far. I suggested PM response as I didn't think my query in its raw form would be of interest on a board like his.

I am attaching a image of the word as it appeared in newsprint -which can itself cause confusions.

I'd repeat my gratitude for any help with what I'd confirm is an academic horological research project.
 

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I am Turkish but I don't know such a word as ' cesendede'. Can't find that word in dictionaries both contemporary and older Ottoman dictionaries.

Googling 'cesendere' brings up interesting things which you might have seen already; one being about an English watchmaker and a law suit example from a book called Cyclopædia of commercial and business anecdotes printed in London in 1864:


Frodsham's Watch Cheat. Mr. Gant, a celebrated London watchmaker, had long manufactured watches for the markets of Constan- tinople and other places in the Levant ; and his watches had acquired great repute there, and a ready sale. They were distinguished from all others, not only by the names, but also by the word cesendede (warranted) impressed upon each in Turkish characters. It appeared that, at the same time, Messrs. Parkinson & Frodsham had manu- factured and were exporting, together with two other persons, who gave them the order, a number of watches with that distinguishing word upon them, and made, also, in other respects, to resemble and pass for Mr, G.'s watches. Messrs. P. & F. essayed to excuse them- selves by showing that they were not aware that they had been counterfeit- ing Mr. G.'s watches; that they had been ordered to make a quantity of watches for export, and to express on them the Turkish characters in ques- tion. They, however, argued that there was no law to prevent them from aflSx- ing the word " warranted," in Turkish, to their own watches, or limit the ex- clusive use of it to Mr. Gant. It was decided, on a suit being brought in the case, that Mr. G. having long used a Turkish word, in Turkish characters, engraved upon the watches made by him for the foreign market, where they were in high estimation and enjoyed great sale, had an exclusive right to the distinguishing marks which he had thus originated.


Back then the alphabet was Arabic alphabet, so I think for convenience they wrote it in the book as it's spelled - with Latin letters - which makes it harder to find the original word.

Tough call really, will look further.

 

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There is no such Turkish word (like all my Turkish neighbors confirmed and also Emre in the post before), there are also different variations of the letter 'c' or 's', with a lower accentuation, but nothing fits. It would be of interest to see the full text and not just a fraction of it.

The term (claiming it to be the Turkish equivalent of warranted) appears in connection with the 'Frodsham's watch cheat', and was most likely just messed up by going back and forth from English to Turkish. I am convinced, that you are researching this case and got stuck with this word, which is definitively not a Turkish one. Don't worry, even the Turks haven't heared of such a word...
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Thanks again gentlemen for your responses. As is often the case when looking at old records/printed matter there is more in the way of confusions, errors, inconsistencies and misunderstandings than reliable information, and, frequently, one concludes a passage of detail study less certain of the 'facts' than when one started. However, I'm grateful to you as the issue is now off my check list!
 

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Thanks again gentlemen for your responses. As is often the case when looking at old records/printed matter there is more in the way of confusions, errors, inconsistencies and misunderstandings than reliable information, and, frequently, one concludes a passage of detail study less certain of the 'facts' than when one started. However, I'm grateful to you as the issue is now off my check list!
I recently translated a book into another language. I got stuck with a word and instead of asking a native speaker, I went around for days without a clue. Finally it was discovered, that such a word does not exist, nothing even near, nothing in any combination of the letters. It was not even possible to find out the meaning, not from the sentence, not from the chapter, not from the entire book. I had to invent someting to go on...

By the way, I am right now doing some research in your neigborhood. I have an old verge watch which was sold by a watchmaker in Maidstone (watch itself made in London). The owner of the watch 'Edward Carter' had his name put on the dial, instead of the numbers. It's one of the Carters of the famous Carter family, who ruled the political scene down in Portsmouth some time ago. Unfortuantely, the name Carter comes 10 a penny in that area.
 

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OK this may sound a bit too much of imagination but the only relevant and period correct word which may have been read wrong and re-phrased as 'cesendede' is ' şehbender ' which etymologically is Persian from 'şahbandar ' meaning the king's port, custom and customs administration.

In early 19th century Sultan Mahmut the 2nd came up with new customs regulations and put a person in charge whose title was 'şehbender'. So exporting a watch with that mark on it would definitely imply trust in the Mediterranean customs.

As said just thinking loud. Old Turkish is very tricky, demands the reader to know Turkish,Persian and Arabic along with a very rich vocabulary knowledge. If you don't know a word you are not able to read it correct.And same words also may mean different things in these three languages.
 

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As said just thinking loud. Old Turkish is very tricky, demands the reader to know Turkish,Persian and Arabic along with a very rich vocabulary knowledge. If you don't know a word you are not able to read it correct.And same words also may mean different things in these three languages.
And you could also know a word, but not read and spell it correctly...
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
By the way, I am right now doing some research in your neigborhood. I have an old verge watch which was sold by a watchmaker in Maidstone (watch itself made in London). The owner of the watch 'Edward Carter' had his name put on the dial, instead of the numbers. It's one of the Carters of the famous Carter family, who ruled the political scene down in Portsmouth some time ago. Unfortuantely, the name Carter comes 10 a penny in that area.
Sounds interesting - have you been able to date the watch and attribute a maker? I love verges - looks/way they tick and wind/variable accuracy. To have remained a staple for so long was remarkable. I also like their essential 'Englishness' even though verges were made elsewhere too.

I also enjoyed the wit in your previous posts.

Regards.

David
 

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Sounds interesting - have you been able to date the watch and attribute a maker? I love verges - looks/way they tick and wind/variable accuracy. To have remained a staple for so long was remarkable. I also like their essential 'Englishness' even though verges were made elsewhere too.

I also enjoyed the wit in your previous posts.

Regards.

David
The watch was made around 1797 by Walter (Watt) Heasman, London (one of my 'younger' vergies). The case has been made by Thomas Carpenter, 7 Islington Road, London. There is a little paper inside, indicating that the watch has been sold by William Dann, Watch and Clockmaker. Jeweller, 3 Week Street (opposite the castle in in these days) in Maidstone. It know for sure, that this watch once belonged to someone of the famous and highly influental Carter family (it was so mentiond at the auction some 30 years ago), who had ruled the political scene down at Portsmouth. I thought, I could dangle that carrot in front of someones nose, but there are too many Carters. Even if I can identify the old owner of the watch, who of the Carters of today are related to him?

1 - 5 Week Street is occupied today by HSBC (from Google Street View), nobody left the I could ask
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
The watch was made around 1797 by Walter (Watt) Heasman, London (one of my 'younger' vergies). The case has been made by Thomas Carpenter, 7 Islington Road, London.
I was also writing up a Carpenter watchcase timepiece recently- The Old Watchword: #21808. Their work looks to be of a very high standard and it's pleasing to see a business which prospered beyond the founding generation. In researching watch/case makers I find that the 'Son' usually fails to match Dad's achievements and hand the enterprise on to their own offspring. I have seen the same thing in automotive retailing where many a hands-on dad built a great little garage business only to have a son ruin it by over extending everything running it as a 'franchise dealership'.

I see that the original Thomas Carpenter's estate may have been near £300 in value - that was pretty substantial in 1803.
 
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