[Pawl_Buster]

Hi all,

I just wanted to thank everyone who weighed in on the two recent threads that dealt with the Swatch HPM movement and the Seiko SD.

While, I'm not satisfied with the nomenclature of calling them 'quartz' watches, I do think I have a better; if not conclusive; understanding of how they actually work. It would be great if Seiko was a little more forthcoming with details but I doubt that will ever happen.

Anyway it was a great discussion, thanks for participating :-!

Now my HEQ question.

Outside of a Thermoline caliber; what should I look for in a really good swiss quartz movement as far as accuracy goes?
I see a lot of 955 and 956 calibers with jewel counts anywhere from 1 to 17.
Also the stick up top is an excellent resource for technical; ie mechanical parts and servicing but I didn't come across anything with timing specs for the ETA pieces.

So, what should I be looking for in a really good Swiss caliber quartz?

 

[Bruce Reding]

Hi all,

I just wanted to thank everyone who weighed in on the two recent threads that dealt with the Swatch HPM movement and the Seiko SD.

While, I'm not satisfied with the nomenclature of calling them 'quartz' watches, I do think I have a better; if not conclusive; understanding of how they actually work. It would be great if Seiko was a little more forthcoming with details but I doubt that will ever happen.

Anyway it was a great discussion, thanks for participating :-!

Thanks, AG, for a stimulating topic. Also, as I should have said days ago, welcome to the forum. :-!

I hope I didn't come across as cussedly obstinate. (I try to hide that, sometimes not so well. ;-)) Just got caught up in the "search for truth".

I'll pass on your Swiss question, as others here are much more knowledgeable. I will say that, without being thermocompensated, there's probably not a strong differentiation among movements and brands in terms of accuracy.

 

[Pawl_Buster]

Thanks, AG, for a stimulating topic. Also, as I should have said days ago, welcome to the forum. :-!

I hope I didn't come across as cussedly obstinate. (I try to hide that, sometimes not so well. ;-)) Just got caught up in the "search for truth".

I'll pass on your Swiss question, as others here are much more knowledgeable. I will say that, without being thermocompensated, there's probably not a strong differentiation among movements and brands in terms of accuracy.

I can be like a pit bull on a bone sometimes as well and hope no one took offense to anything I have said.
There have been other discussions like this one on other forums and I don't remember any of them producing as much real info or actual thought about the subject as has been demonstrated here...most of those were of the 'religious' kind that always end with 'we will have to agree to disagree' and nothing concrete to help resolve the differing opinions.

I look forward to some input on the higher end quartz movements. The only swiss quartz movements I have in my collection are Ronda 715 and a Ronda 735. I imagine these are probably not much different than the ordinary Seiko 7N series in terms of time keeping, accuracy and construction/finish.
I know that jewel count doesn't necessarily make one quartz movement better than another but my mechanical leanings make me feel better about a 13 to 17 jewel movement if or no other reason than the aesthetics...I open and look at my watch movements often

Thanks for the welcome. This forum has so much more to offer than the usual 'What are you wearing today' sites :-!

 

[Fatpants]

WUS HEQ Forum kicks arse:-!

 

[Bruce Reding]

WUS HEQ Forum kicks arse:-!

I'm hoping that's a good thing. :-d

 

[Fatpants]

Of course

 

[M4tt]

A row comparing the SD and HPM and I missed it - bugger! it was hilarious last time! Oh well, I'll have broadband back soon.

 

[Eeeb]

A row comparing the SD and HPM and I missed it - bugger! it was hilarious last time! Oh well, I'll have broadband back soon.

Ah, everyone took my word for everything... it's amazing how much respect you get when they hang 'moderator' under your name :-d :-d

 

[M4tt]

Ah, everyone took my word for everything... it's amazing how much respect you get when they hang 'moderator' under your name :-d :-d

Oh Dear, so now everyone believes that Asulab should get the Nobel prize and that SD stands for Squirrel Droppings?

Actually, reading the other thread I think that I would have been redundant.
I only have one question, I think I will pop over there and ask it!

Good job!

 

[DaveM]

I think that we all agree that SD is a quartz-accuracy watch which does not require any form of battery.
No battery is a really good feature, but the solution is a very expensive technological tour-de-force and still has one big problem, the watch stops if you do not wear it.
Perhaps this is why Seiko did not include a perpetual calendar.

At the end of 'is spring-drive quartz' M4tt sings the praises of tuning-forks.
For me the exciting part of a site like this is to be introduced to new ideas and talk about their advantages & how they work.
Since we got to religion, I suppose that we could spend years arguing whether SD was Quartz or Mechanical, & then have a schism with 2 different sites. Anyone mentioning SD on the Quartz site would be sent to hyperspace perdition.

So can we agree that this section should be open to new ideas, both HIGH END and QUARTZ should be interpreted in the most liberal way possible. As a demonstration of our liberality should we could include tuning-fork watches ?

 

[Eeeb]

..
So can we agree that this section should be open to new ideas, both HIGH END and QUARTZ should be interpreted in the most liberal way possible. As a demonstration of our liberality should we could include tuning-fork watches ?

We hashed it over and Bruce wrote a 'mission statement' for HEQ. It's in the stickies at the top. Just think of us as interested in geeky watches and you won't be far off :-d

 

[psycofant]

I think that we all agree that SD is a quartz-accuracy watch which does not require any form of battery.
No battery is a really good feature, but the solution is a very expensive technological tour-de-force and still has one big problem, the watch stops if you do not wear it.
Perhaps this is why Seiko did not include a perpetual calendar.

The Kinetic movement can come with a perpetual calendar and it too would stop if you did not wear the watch. I'm splitting hairs here, though, as the power reserve on the kinetic is much longer than the SD (months vs. ~3 days), thanks to a rechargeable battery. ;-)

 

[Pawl_Buster]

...As a demonstration of our liberality should we could include tuning-fork watches ?

That's another tough one since a lot if not most most current quartz oscillators are of the tuning fork type ;-)

I'm sorry if some folks took the 'religion' statement out of context. I simply used it to describe the blind zeal that some people exhibit when defending their positions rather than thoughtful and supportable ideas based on the actual data at hand...ie 'it has a quartz crystal therefore it is a quartz watch'. It is important, not that there is or isn't a certain element present but how it is used.

It is my opinion that to call the SD/HPM 'quartz' movements is as erroneous as calling them 'mechanical' movements, because they are clearly hybrid structures.

I guess part of the issue is that we humans always seem to need to put labels on things and that can lead to problems of perception. Focusing on a single aspect of a system and ignoring all the others can only lead to misunderstandings about the whole. For example if someone tells me he has a quartz watch with nothing else to describe it, what do I take from that? Does he have an Analog piece with stepper motor(s), a purely digital piece with no motors an no moving parts or perhaps one of those odd quartz controlled balance wheel units? If you are of the belief that the SD/HPM is a quartz watch then that too would add to the confusion.

 

[DaveM]

We hashed it over and Bruce wrote a 'mission statement' for HEQ. It's in the stickies at the top. Just think of us as interested in geeky watches and you won't be far off :-d

I have just read it & :thanks looks like just what the doctor ordered.

Can I try one more thing before leaving this.
What follows is VERY rough and ready & my maths may be wrong, but I am trying to get some idea of the problem

Battery for Thermoline (CR2016) is 80mah at 3volt
I make this 237 millijoules per day assuming 10year life

HPM talks about micro-generator producing 480nw at start
I make this 51 millijoules per 30 hours

Seiko 'cool facts' had '25 nanowatt to activate the regulator', SD runs for 3 days.

Does anybody know how many joules the SD spring (or any watch spring) can store ?
Does anybody know what 'activate the regulator' means.

Because the motor is a direct drive to the hands and there is no energy-storage, roughly
PeakSpringForce-MinimumSpringForce must be wasted by the brake, but the end result still looks impressive:roll:

 

[Eeeb]

I assume they have a capacitor in the circuit to store the energy temporarily. I assume the size of the capacitor determines the storage capacity.

 

[DaveM]

The Kinetic movement can come with a perpetual calendar and it too would stop if you did not wear the watch. I'm splitting hairs here, though, as the power reserve on the kinetic is much longer than the SD (months vs. ~3 days), thanks to a rechargeable battery. ;-)

No technical problem, I just thought that a perpetual calendar is more hastle than it is worth unless you can be sure that the watch keeps going. Even one month power-reserve is probably OK to prevent stopages, but 3 days is risky.

 

[DaveM]

I guess part of the issue is that we humans always seem to need to put labels on things and that can lead to problems of perception. Focusing on a single aspect of a system and ignoring all the others can only lead to misunderstandings about the whole. For example if someone tells me he has a quartz watch with nothing else to describe it, what do I take from that? Does he have an Analog piece with stepper motor(s), a purely digital piece with no motors an no moving parts or perhaps one of those odd quartz controlled balance wheel units? If you are of the belief that the SD/HPM is a quartz watch then that too would add to the confusion.[/quote]

I agree, never trust labels!

 

[Pawl_Buster]

I have just read it & :thanks looks like just what the doctor ordered.

Can I try one more thing before leaving this.
What follows is VERY rough and ready & my maths may be wrong, but I am trying to get some idea of the problem

Battery for Thermoline (CR2016) is 80mah at 3volt
I make this 237 millijoules per day assuming 10year life

HPM talks about micro-generator producing 480nw at start
I make this 51 millijoules per 30 hours

Seiko 'cool facts' had '25 nanowatt to activate the regulator', SD runs for 3 days.

Does anybody know how many joules the SD spring (or any watch spring) can store ?
Does anybody know what 'activate the regulator' means.

Because the motor is a direct drive to the hands and there is no energy-storage, roughly
PeakSpringForce-MinimumSpringForce must be wasted by the brake, but the end result still looks impressive:roll:

I think your own figures can give you a pretty good idea of the potential stored in the spring. That the 3 days and the millijoules per hour consumption less a small percentage for drive line losses and you have your answer.

 

[Pawl_Buster]

I guess part of the issue is that we humans always seem to need to put labels on things and that can lead to problems of perception. Focusing on a single aspect of a system and ignoring all the others can only lead to misunderstandings about the whole. For example if someone tells me he has a quartz watch with nothing else to describe it, what do I take from that? Does he have an Analog piece with stepper motor(s), a purely digital piece with no motors an no moving parts or perhaps one of those odd quartz controlled balance wheel units? If you are of the belief that the SD/HPM is a quartz watch then that too would add to the confusion.

I agree, never trust labels![/quote]

Yep, if I did that, my 20 year old car would be referred to as a 'Motorola' because it uses a Motorola voltage regulator chip inside the Bosch regulator module on the Valeo alternator supplying power to the Varta battery in my BMW :-d

 

[M4tt]

I guess part of the issue is that we humans always seem to need to put labels on things and that can lead to problems of perception.

Funny, you don't strike me as a Buddhist!

The fact is that without these labels, language would be impossible and we smartly revert to dumb animal status. Think about it: any word is a token of the thing that it denotes. Without conceptualisation and categorisation (splitting the world into an ontology and ordering it) structured thought, language and communication is impossible. Imagine what would happen if we had to find an actual example of the thing we wanted to talk about - and clearly identify it it - to be able to include it in a conversation. Conventional labelling (conventional as in by agreed convention) allows words and concepts to float free of the things they denote.

The current debate is one of classification that would have been very familiar to the Victorians. The Springdrive debate is identical to the one about where to classify the duck billed platypus, for example.

However, some philosophers of mind take things further and argue that prior to conceptual content (sentences which are the vehicles of propositional content) there is some sort of non conceptual content in which chords of neurons 'label' and 'store' the perceptions of the world in some ultracomplex manner. Whatever route you take, labelling has to happen because we do represent the world in both our heads and our language.

Oh yes,and the SD is a quartz as the thing that does the job of actually keeping time is a quartz crystal - everything else is either power source or display. It's not even as smoothly rotating as the F720!:-! (from the appropriate inertial frame) We did this six months ago. Nothing has changed apart from several people finding some fine schematics which demonmstrate that our conclusion then was correct.