Seiko 5 are superb. Vostok.....mmmm.

I have a HKED Bundeswehr with a Seagull Chronograph and the watch is accurate to +7 seconds pr day and i am very impressed with the movement so from me i say go for it.

 

Depends on the movement / watch. Seagull makes quite a few..

Just based on personal experience:
ST19 (Venus 175 clone chronograph) - very good precision, but more prone to failures Swiss or Japanese movements.
ST25 - reliable and precise for the price, clearly recommendable in my opinion.
ST36 (Unitas clone) - very similar to an unregulated Swiss original in terms of accuracy and durability.

 

I don't buy from thieves.

https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/wtf-sea-gull-straight-up-thieves-aevig-content-2196561.html

 

I'm a big fan of seagull watches (username checks out) as they were the first mechanical brand I bought into, but I'd like to think that I can still look at them rationally.

I'm slowly going through the 35 page thread you linked to but putting on my lawyer hat - what was stolen here? Did Chip arrange for a non-compete clause to be signed before giving over his designs to the OEM? I'm not talking about moral/ethical but the legal issue. And if a NCC was signed, had it expired by the time Seagull put out its own version?

Nowadays I'm not a fan of homages - it's why I sold my Borealis and got the Pelagos. But the reason why homages exist and can be freely discussed on this forum is because they are legal. The lack of legal awareness by some posters in the thread you linked to (mentioning copyright for design elements etc.) is enlightening.

Anyway - just like I wouldn't buy a Seagull "aquaterra" or Borealis seahawk anymore I probably wouldn't buy their version of the Aevig. But if you're going to accuse them of stealing then you'll need to back it up with actual legal facts (vs what you think is morally right or wrong).

If on the other hand you wish to say they aren't actually thieves in the legal sense of the word then perhaps you should amend your statement to something more accurate - you wouldn't want to buy from a company that copies designs sent to them for OEM production...that may make them unreliable business partners, but it certainly doesn't make them thieves (unless there's more to see on the legal side). The preceding distinction would still allow you to buy from Borealis, Steinhart etc. and not Seagull

Otherwise, accusing companies of acting illegally leads to potential legal consequences for the forum itself - see all the warnings we get about discussing Marina Militare stuff.

Answering the OP's question:
Seagull makes plenty of reliable timepieces - their ST25 is rather "in-house" as opposed to just being clones of ETA/Venus movements - they specifically designed it for viewing the open heart design. The ST2130 is a clone of the venerable ETA2824 and there is a teardown comparison up on the Chinese forum (I think final verdict was pretty good and some/most parts interchangeable with the ETA - finishing could be better though).

For a first foray into Chinese watches I'd definitely recommend them (or an older Beijing watch - prior to their joint venture with Fiyta). They, along with Beijing and Shanghai are the 3 pillars of Chinese watchmaking but I've no experience personally of Shanghai.

I did get a Beijing Beihai recently and highly recommend that watch - here's my indepth review:
https://www.watchuseek.com/f72/beijing-beihai-watch-review-4627021.html

Funny thing about the Beihai 1.0 - it was quite an "homage" to the Patek Gondolo - but by 3.0 they've changed enough of the design that I'm happy to keep my 3.0 despite my aversion to homages.

and on page 6 of your "thief" thread we do get some light...

Originally Posted by Cagey5
A little late to this and haven't read every post but am I right in thinking that the design was actually sent to Seagull in the first instance in order to obtain some prototyping?
If that was the case was there a signed agreement between the parties and did that include a non-disclosure clause? That would be the normal course of action to obtain prototypes wouldn't it? And would certainly help if any form of litigation was pursued .

Docvail says:
This is another challenge for smaller, startup brands.

Just having legal documents drafted is easy enough, though not cheap if you want them drafted well.

However, good luck getting your over-seas vendor to agree to sign one. And if they do, good luck pursuing them in court if they breach the agreement.

In my experience, it's not worth bothering with "legal docs" in these sorts of relationships, as they lack teeth.

The teeth, if there are any, are right here - if one of these overseas vendors screw a micro-brand, it's up to the market to punish them.

This is plainly awful legal advice - when doing business if you don't put in formal legal documentation and protections you should operate on the premise that you have none. If you don't obtain agreement on NDA/NCC issues then you have to operate on the premise that the company you are dealing with can do whatever they are legally entitled to do (including using your designs if they are not legally protected). The comeback is then limited to not doing future business with that company, unlike if you had a legal document in place to cover such a problem arising. And if as docvail says - the company you are dealing with doesn't want to sign one - that would raise any number of alarm bells and I would be advising the micro-brand to look at dealing with alternative partners. There could be a good reason why a Chinese OEM might be cheaper than a US or Swiss OEM - you want to roll the dice without basic legal protection - you have to be prepared for the consequences.

 

Sea-Gull is the largest mechanical watch movement manufacturer in the world. They produce a variety of calibers, some much better than others. The ST2130 is a 28,800 high beat movement, designed as a clone of the ETA 2824-2. The ST17 movements are also well regarded, for a mid-range product. The automatic ST6 movements don't have a great reputation, either with accuracy or reliability. The hand-wind ST19 chronographs have a wide range of reliability, depending on the final manufacturer. They require a watchmaker that is willing to go the extra mile with QC testing. The ST25 series seems to be fairly trouble free.

Sea-Gull watches are generally well made, meeting or surpassing the quality of similarly priced Japanese watches. For a little more money, Beijing Watch Factory makes a superior product. They have a more limited model lines, but the finish is excellent. Check out Times International. The lower priced Beijing models, blow away everything else in their price range.

I may be too late, as it looks like Times International has cleared out their older Beijing models, and is in the process of restocking with the newer Fiyta era models.

 

Fear not, the older Bejings are still available! Jun has just made the Times International website more confusing. All the older models are still there - you just have to click on the different categories (classics, tourbillons etc.) to find them.

As for Sea-Gulls, their quality can vary. I've had a few, including a high-end tourbillon and a couple of 1963 reissues (one by Sea-Gull, the other by HKED). All have been good, reliable watches.

And as for the unethical business practices and homages, well, that's a personal call. I'm keeping my 1963s and my Sea-Gull powered Tisell, but all my other Sea-Gulls are either gone or on the way out.

Oh, and I just pulled the trigger on one of the last Aevig Balaurs - and am selling my Sea-Gull tourbillon to fund it. Make of that what you will.

 

I have a Marloe Chronoscope with the ST19. Question for those who have had a watch with this movement longer. I hand wind it to full power, when I run the chronograph, it stops after 5-10 minutes but the watch will continue to run.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

 

I have a Marloe Chronoscope with the ST19. Question for those who have had a watch with this movement longer. I hand wind it to full power, when I run the chronograph, it stops after 5-10 minutes but the watch will continue to run.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

I've just ran my 2 ST-19 chronos (hked bundeswehr & EMG DL63) and they ran the full 30 mins with no problems

 

Hit and miss. Their quality will continue to get better over the years, but they haven't even started to develop professional work ethics yet. What they did with Aevig's design is well known around these parts, and unforgivable. That makes them an "avoid" to me, now and for forever. Would you willingly support theives?

 

I kinda got scared (or pushed) away by two things:

1) a few notable micro-brand owners who've tried using seagull movements in their watches and had pretty bad experience with quality issues and getting repairs from the movement casers/makers. Iirc docvail has gone on several rants about that, and his "never again" wrt. riccardo is telling.

2) Given that there are microbrand watch clones being sold under sea-gull name, that discourages me from wanting to support sea-gull in any way. Like.. there's plenty other things I can buy.

 

Sea-Gull are a bit like the curate’s egg. Some parts are best not mentioned while others ain’t too bad. Anyhoo, all that is moot since you mentioned the extremely good Seiko 5.

 

Sea-Gull are a bit like the curate's egg. Some parts are best not mentioned while others ain't too bad. Anyhoo, all that is moot since you mentioned the extremely good Seiko 5.

But say what if you want a retrograde date date with open heart? I don't think the discussion is moot just because a Seiko 5 (I prefer Citizen - preferably NY2300 or NY0040) is mentioned.

Certainly the M171s costs a bit more than the Seiko:
Sea-Gull M171S retrograde flying wheel automatic watch

But you are certainly getting a lot more for your money also - retrograde day/date, open heart, double sapphire crystals and dependable movement. Some things a Seiko 5 simply don't offer (except after market sapphire and of course its dependable movement )

 

Sea-Gull has some lovely designs, but I've had mixed results with them in terms of quality. In a different thread, I was commenting on a particular brand of watch (unimportant here) that I've had quality issues with that have been unlike my experiences with other watch brands. Then I saw this thread and was reminded of my bad experiences with Sea-Gull. I've owned three. Two of the three developed identical problems in less than a year of ownership: the crown froze up and refused to move or to be pulled out or pushed in. I still have the other one and really like it, but I get super nervous whenever I wear it, thinking it'll break any moment. Truth be told, all three are entry-level models, but I can't say I've had that problem with any Seiko 5s or entry-level Orients. So just from a quality standpoint, I can't recommend them.

 

BTW, I should clarify that the two watches of mine that developed those problems in less than a year had each been worn no more than twice a week.

 

My limited experience is the ST2130 movement in my Xicorr watch. I was a little nervous about the movement going in. But it keeps great time, has a smooth second hand sweep, and winds and sets smoothly. The watch is less than a year old and doesn't get worn every day, so no data on longevity yet.

 

Where did you buy them from? Would it be possible to get it repaired/replaced under manufacturer's warranty?

If someone bought from Kevin in USSeagull I'm sure he would provide proper post purchase service.

That's actually another thing the OP should consider - for example Seiko would have worldwide AD and service centres whereas with Seagull it would be similar to Vostok - all things go back to Russia (or China in this case).

But Kevin in USSeagull has always been great - both in sales and when I needed to get my seagull serviced (sea dragon king with st2130).

 

Yes, I agree, that's definitely something to consider. Mine were purchased from Times International.

When I had the problem with the first one, I wondered whether it might be an easily fixed problem, so I simply posted it for sale on WUS with full disclosure of what type of problem I was having. I figured someone who was more skilled at repairing watches might be interested in it, and it actually sold pretty quickly. I figured it was a one-off, so I bought another because I loved the design so much. Then the same thing happened again with the new one, at which point I simply gave up. I didn't want to repair it at that point, because I was done with the brand. Again, I posted it on WUS for sale, explaining the issue, and someone happily grabbed it.

 

I owned a Timex Sport Luxury T2M513 with a Seagull ST2505 movement.

I bought this watch as a cheap closeout to check out the Seagull movement. Consistently 15-20 seconds fast per week, hand winding, hacking, completely silent and the best movement in my cheap mechanical watch collection (Seiko, Citizen, Vostok).

If you go for a watch with this movement, buy a white dial unless your friends call you Hawkeye.

If you see a good price on an old Timex Sport Luxury, their straps and bracelets sucked but they look great on a 20mm Rios notched strap. Don't pay more than you would for Parnis: the only significant Timex advantage is higher probability of getting a lubricated movement.

Thanks to JohnnyBaldJunior for the photo.

 

Wouldn't say no to these

 

It's given me a few chuckles to see Seagull and Seiko 5 used in the same sentence. They don't compare and their price reflects that. Clearly a genuine branded Seagull is a superior watch. IMO, if you really want a cheap watch that's solid and accurate get a Citizen ecodrive. Those babies can't be beat at their price point.

 

I think Seagull is a ways away from matching Seiko and Miyota in the lower price categories in terms of performance and (especially) reputation and durability.

 

Are you talking about movements, or finished watches? Some of Sea-Gull's reliability problems come from the manufacturers that use their movements. Tianjin Sea-Gull may have a state of the art movement factory, but if someone cases up a watch in a Guangzhou sweatshop, all bets are off. I believe the OP was asking specifically about Sea-Gull branded watches.

 

Hmmmm well my Seiko 5 was £60 and averages 4 secs a day fast out of the box and works flawlessly so if Seagulls can beat that I will definitely buy one. Just a bit pit off by Chinese imitate not innovate attitude as can be seen here with the IP theft accusations and cloned movements. I just want to know if they match Seiko or Citizen mechanicals price for price basically. I looked at Beijing Watches but Taobao is a nightmare as are the agents.

@Bucks I am not really into quartz. I had an Eco Drive that " never needed a battery" it packed up after about 10 years, sent it to Citizen and they said it was obsolete so now dead in a drawer. Mechanicals can be worked on and kept going. Good if you hate the throwaway society like I do.

 

Just a bit pit off by Chinese imitate not innovate attitude as can be seen here with the IP theft accusations and cloned movements.

That's a good point. When Japan rebuilt after WWII and started mass producing goods in the 1950s, people said they just copied western designs and did not innovate. Obviously those people were wrong. I expect the same holds true with China

 

Well I'd say the lower end Seagull stuff might be poorer than a Seiko 5 (think ST6 movements) whereas the high end Seikos (grand seiko and the beautiful Credor line) far outstrips anything Seagull makes (though I'd like to think that Beijing would give them a run for their money). I know you weren't comparing the higher end Seikos to Seagull but I just wanted an excuse to post this Credor on the affordables forum:
https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/seiko-credor-eichi-2-in-depth *drool* (despite it being a spring drive).

A lower end Seagull with a ST6 movement still costs around the same as a Seiko 5 though - and for that money I'd go with the Seiko, if not for the movement then for the peace of mind of buying into a large, well backed network of international service centres.

But if your budget extents to $150-250 then I'd definitely look at what Seagull can offer (movements that contain the ST25 or ST21 movements) and if your budget extends to $300-400 I'd look at the Beijing Beihai 3.0 or later.

 

Recently it's been in the news that the US is trying to crack down China's failure to respect IP rights. I guess we'll see at some point if there's any progress in that area.

 

In my experience, they're on par with Seiko 5, and a clear bit better than Vostok.

I've had two Sea-Gull watches. I still have the M186S, and it is great. Date aperture is a bit small, and the gearing of the crown is a bit higher than I'm used to, but it ticks away reliably.

The other one was a mechnical moon phase watch. I quite liked it, but decided I DIDN'T like a mechanical moon phase watch. Too much of a pain to set it.

It should be mentioned that Sea-Gull sells movements to anyone, and no all of their customers do as good of a job at assembly as they do. The watches then end up being unreliable and give Sea-Gull a bad name. But if you buy a Sea-Gull WATCH, I think you'll be happy.

I've had a new Vostok Amphibia that stopped sometimes for no reason that I could see. Sea-Gull never did that to me. The Seiko movements FEEL a bit better, but don't actually work any better. But they do cost less than a Sea-Gull movement in a Sea-Gull watch, so I still think they're a better value.

 

Had 2: 1963 Chrono and M171S. Both were good values for the money and both flipped to fund a grail. Having the funds to rebuy the watches multiple times, I have always chosen to buy something else. There are just so many quality watches at that same price point nowadays.

 

FYI, the two Sea-Gull watches that I mentioned in my earlier post as having problems with were both Sea-Gull M186S models. People are making a distinction here between Sea-Gull branded watches and movements, and it's a valid distinction. However, my bad experiences have been with Sea-Gull watches, not just with their movements.

Like I said before, the watch was beautiful, but I noticed right away that the in and out crown movement was very "spongy" (for lack of a better word), and trying to find the middle position to set the date was an exercise in frustration. Those features apply to the one Sea-Gull that I still own as well (the M177S). I've owned plenty of Seiko 5s, including plenty that I had picked up for roughly $50. None of them felt remotely as dodgy as the Sea-Gulls I've handled.

 

*

 

Beware some of the so called Seagull Movement or seagull watch which came too cheap which broke down within short time. They might be knock-off of seagull.

I know some hangzhou movement trying to pass off as seagull and even seagull itself is a victim of counterfeit. The QC will not be as good as original seagull produced watches and movement.

https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/fake-seagull-watch-story-real-false-4514705.html

 

What are Huangzhou movements like. I was looking at Tissell watches with these fitted?

 

They are slight different from the seagull Tianjin produced movement but the finishing are far worse and cheap looking.

 

I've had a couple of Sea Gulls from their store (grand date moon phase) and it was a fine watch. Maybe the ones with their name, from their store, receive more QC attention?

Also, had a Sea Gull chrono and it was great, ran like a champ.

For the money, I think they are nice watches.