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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi there fellas, I am customizing a watch with a very talented online watchmaker.
I am stuck between the above 2 Tourbillons.

I have been told that the Hangzhou is much cheaper than the Seagull. However I do not think that is a valid enough reason to make the Seagull better.

I asked about accuracy of the Hangzhou and was told that when regulated it is about Plus OR Minus 10 Seconds a day.
Isn't this a bit too much? Is this normal? I expected a Hangzhou to get up to COSC Specs when regulated because regular chinese mechanicals can be regulated to near COSC .

I will really appreciate if anyone can give me some advice between these 2 movements.
Thanks and your input will be very helpful on my next purchase.

Joey
 

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Hopefully those with more experience of these movements will comment here, but I think that the functional differences between the two are that the Hangzhou has a faster beating escapement but a shorter power reserve.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Hopefully those with more experience of these movements will comment here, but I think that the functional differences between the two are that the Hangzhou has a faster beating escapement but a shorter power reserve.
hello Chascomm, how have you been and happy NewYear to you. What bothers me is the accuracy. It is stated on pets that daily tolerance is about 25 sec. However , I was told by the custom watch maker that with regulation, accuracy will be improved to about 10 seconds plus/minus. I still think this is not very good. So, apart from reliability , I also want to find out if the seagull will have a significantly better accuracy.
 

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Regarding accuracy, I doubt that in general either of these movements uses materials and is manufactured to tolerances aimed at meeting COSC specs. However, it may be possible to bin out some specimens that can meet those specs. Since I have not purchased movements directly from manufacturers, I don't know whether they actually distinguish different grades.

You probably know that compared to the ST8260 the Hangzhou is a much higher volume production movement. It is used in many Chinese reps and you can find quite a bit of feedback if you google it. 'Some say it's reliable, some say otherwise'. The 8260 is considered to be of relatively high quality and conforming well to the original Breguet design.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Regarding accuracy, I doubt that in general either of these movements uses materials and is manufactured to tolerances aimed at meeting COSC specs. However, it may be possible to bin out some specimens that can meet those specs. Since I have not purchased movements directly from manufacturers, I don't know whether they actually distinguish different grades.

You probably know that compared to the ST8260 the Hangzhou is a much higher volume production movement. It is used in many Chinese reps and you can find quite a bit of feedback if you google it. 'Some say it's reliable, some say otherwise'. The 8260 is considered to be of relatively high quality and conforming well to the original Breguet design.
thank you passionisto for your advice. I didn't want to seem like I was being biased towards seagull. I have a lot of confidence in Seagull.
However, I will continue my research. Thanks again.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Regarding accuracy, I doubt that in general either of these movements uses materials and is manufactured to tolerances aimed at meeting COSC specs. However, it may be possible to bin out some specimens that can meet those specs. Since I have not purchased movements directly from manufacturers, I don't know whether they actually distinguish different grades.

You probably know that compared to the ST8260 the Hangzhou is a much higher volume production movement. It is used in many Chinese reps and you can find quite a bit of feedback if you google it. 'Some say it's reliable, some say otherwise'. The 8260 is considered to be of relatively high quality and conforming well to the original Breguet design.
Hi there passionisto, may I also ask why the Turbillons do not have accuracy as good as their automatics or manual wind? I think 10-15 second variation is quite poor for something that is meant to improve the accuracy of the movement
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Hopefully those with more experience of these movements will comment here, but I think that the functional differences between the two are that the Hangzhou has a faster beating escapement but a shorter power reserve.
Hi there Chascomm, I also have some extra questions for you: How far in quality is PTS Tourbillons (The Hangzhou Models) from the Seagull Turbillons.
Also, I was told that with regulation, the variation improves to 10-15sec per day. Isn't this really poor as compared to swiss counterparts?
 

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I went back to my old timing data (from 2014) for my Chinese mechanical forum tourbillon, and it is indeed a lot worse than e.g. the ST5, another forum watch.
Variation between positions is pretty bad. Maybe I should check lubrication. The variation between dial up and dial down clearly should not be there, unless this is something inherent to this flying tourbillon design?
It's hard to conclude anything from a sample of one, except that not all seagull tourbillons come properly regulated from the factory/assembler.


 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I went back to my old timing data (from 2014) for my Chinese mechanical forum tourbillon, and it is indeed a lot worse than e.g. the ST5, another forum watch.
Variation between positions is pretty bad. Maybe I should check lubrication. The variation between dial up and dial down clearly should not be there, unless this is something inherent to this flying tourbillon design?
It's hard to conclude anything from a sample of one, except that not all seagull tourbillons come properly regulated from the factory/assembler.


Thanks for your feedback. I am not sure what to think of this because if I forfeited a Hangzhou300 for a seagull 8260 and that happened:; I would be pretty upset. So, I am not sure how much better the Seagull is compared to the Hangzhou
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Hopefully those with more experience of these movements will comment here, but I think that the functional differences between the two are that the Hangzhou has a faster beating escapement but a shorter power reserve.
Hi Chascomm, how are you?
I have 2 questions for you please: 1. how do you think PTS Tourbillons compare to Seagull's, especially the Carousells.
I notice memorigin uses PTS.

2. Is this just an Asian Tourbillon thing where by their accuracy is within 15-25seconds even for Seagulls.

I will be awaiting your advice.

Joey
 

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Hi there passionisto, may I also ask why the Turbillons do not have accuracy as good as their automatics or manual wind?
I am not sure I can agree with the premise of your question. According to the data I have, the accuracy is about the same.

I think 10-15 second variation is quite poor for something that is meant to improve the accuracy of the movement
While I don't have first hand data from manufacturers, from the data I do have, it seems the sweetspot for accuracy that can be guaranteed for screened movements is about + - 12 to 13 seconds per day. That seems consistent with the high volume low cost market the Chinese are targeting. (It is interesting to note that the accuracy of mechanical movements of the Swiss Swatch is about in the same range.)

For the timekeeping accuracy of such a movement a tourbillon makes hardly any difference.

Let me add, if one makes a list of reasons why someone buys a $100,000 + tourbillon watch, the improvement of accuracy ranks at or near the bottom. There is just not that much to be gained with a traditional tourbillon on a wristwatch.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I am not sure I can agree with the premise of your question. According to the data I have, the accuracy is about the same.



While I don't have first hand data from manufacturers, from the data I do have, it seems the sweetspot for accuracy that can be guaranteed for screened movements is about + - 12 to 13 seconds per day. That seems consistent with the high volume low cost market the Chinese are targeting. (It is interesting to note that the accuracy of mechanical movements of the Swiss Swatch is about in the same range.)

For the timekeeping accuracy of such a movement a tourbillon makes hardly any difference.

Let me add, if one makes a list of reasons why someone buys a $100,000 + tourbillon watch, the improvement of accuracy ranks at or near the bottom. There is just not that much to be gained with a traditional tourbillon on a wristwatch.
hi Passionisto, thanks for getting in touch, I do not know much about this whole Tourbillon complication. I have read many places and no one confirms the benefits. Hence, why big players including the chinese are coming up with Bi-axial Tourbillons.; to improve the already existing Co-Axial.
From what I understand, it was kind of like a hypothetical device and it's benefits were never realised. However, due to the complexity, it became a sort after complication. That is what I understand from all the content I have come across.

I know there are COSC Tourbillons but at astronomical prices. Is it that these Chinese Tourbillons including the swiss are more difficult to regulate than a regular movement. Hence why they read 10-15 seconds? Please if you have any form of enlightenment to pass to me, I will be highly appreciative.
This mite end up being a purposeful thread
 

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Since approx. two months I've got a watch with one of the Hangshou 3300 movements and basically I wear it daily since I got it. I got it "new old stock" off eBay at a very good price and even though it's one of those "tv ad channel brands" (Nautec No Limit), I've got to say this model appeals me and I enjoy wearing and "watching" it a lot.

Whasoever, accuracy-wise I cannot complain at all. I wind it in the morning and having it on the wrist between 6 and 12 hours a day, I readjust it maybe every two weeks when its no more than one minute fast. So averaged over this period, it's no more than five seconds fast a day. Since I haven't got the equipment (nor the enthusiasm... ;) ) to do accurate measurements, I cannot tell if there are more significant errors to be expected in certain orientations of the watch or at different temperatures, but I consider at least my particular one so far a reliable and actually useful timepiece. And...I love the delicate mechanics and smooth movement of the tourbillon...

Cheers and all the best,
Thomas


Hangzhou1.jpg
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Since approx. two months I've got a watch with one of the Hangshou 3300 movements and basically I wear it daily since I got it. I got it "new old stock" off eBay at a very good price and even though it's one of those "tv ad channel brands" (Nautec No Limit), I've got to say this model appeals me and I enjoy wearing and "watching" it a lot.

Whasoever, accuracy-wise I cannot complain at all. I wind it in the morning and having it on the wrist between 6 and 12 hours a day, I readjust it maybe every two weeks when its no more than one minute fast. So averaged over this period, it's no more than five seconds fast a day. Since I haven't got the equipment (nor the enthusiasm... ;) ) to do accurate measurements, I cannot tell if there are more significant errors to be expected in certain orientations of the watch or at different temperatures, but I consider at least my particular one so far a reliable and actually useful timepiece. And...I love the delicate mechanics and smooth movement of the tourbillon...

Cheers and all the best,
Thomas


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Hi Tom, thanks you for your advice. I think it is quite a reliable movement but very common and mass produced in comparism to the seagull that is not as mass produced. I think the reason is that seagull is actually making watches of their own and have other sources of revenue.
However, Hangzhou will have to push out movements in higher numbers to stay competitive within the chinese watch making industry.

Anyways, thanks for the re-assurance. I have decided to go with a Hangzhou---I also like the finishing on the movement and the carrousel which also has a pointer on it, this makes it better looking and more useful.
 
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