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hi all,
I have spotted several tissot watches I'd like to buy (most notably PRS-516 that has and excellent design and ETA 2836 movement), but I also like Seiko 6r20 Premier. Which one would you choose and why? And which movement is better in your opinion, ETA2836 or Seiko 6R20?
br,
risto
 
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Seiko 6R20 comes with day/date and power reserve. It is a higher-end version of the 7s26 that hacks and hand-winds.

ETA 2836 is a day/date. No power reserve. An ubiquitous movement that's the workhorse of the industry. Performance and reliability is well-known.

Accuracy wise, can't comment without knowing the adjustment or grade in the Tissot but I won't be surprised if the Seiko trounces Tissot in the accuracy and reliability dept.

The dial on the Seiko is a bit busy, and the day/date may be diff. to read precisely at a glance due to its design.

Dial/case work. Seiko is more intricate and overall fit and finish is a notch above the Tissot. You may not agree with me because the Japanese follow a "form follows function" philosophy to finishing (in a nutshell, less flashy) than the Swiss.

Don't buy a watch just for the movement. If the dial/case doesn't speak to you, stay away!
 

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Seiko 6R20 comes with day/date and power reserve. It is a higher-end version of the 7s26 that hacks and hand-winds.

ETA 2836 is a day/date. No power reserve. An ubiquitous movement that's the workhorse of the industry. Performance and reliability is well-known.

Accuracy wise, can't comment without knowing the adjustment or grade in the Tissot but I won't be surprised if the Seiko trounces Tissot in the accuracy and reliability dept.

The dial on the Seiko is a bit busy, and the day/date may be diff. to read precisely at a glance due to its design.

Dial/case work. Seiko is more intricate and overall fit and finish is a notch above the Tissot. You may not agree with me because the Japanese follow a "form follows function" philosophy to finishing (in a nutshell, less flashy) than the Swiss.

Don't buy a watch just for the movement. If the dial/case doesn't speak to you, stay away!
These watches are indeed very different - prs516 has a very sporty look, while seiko premier automatic is more like a dress watch (but with steel bracelet it obtains a more "universal" look and goes quite well with more relaxed dress code). In spite of the different style, I like them both. Seiko just does not have luminous hands, but I guess this is a general style for more expensive Seikos? Apart from style, another big difference is pricing - Seiko 6r20 Premier costs almost two times more. That's why I was actually asking about movements - I suspected that the movement value is the reason for that difference. br, risto
 

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What about this one, or one of the other Valjoux Tissots:

Tissot T91.1.487.81 PRS516 Automatic Chronograph. This sporty watch uses an ETA Valjoux 7750 movement. Features include day, date, and 60 second, 30 minute, 12 hour registers. Black PVD coated bezel has bright yellow filled tachymeter scale.

If you pay a little bit more you get alot more for your money with Tissot, although it may be a little bit heavier.


John
 
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These watches are indeed very different - prs516 has a very sporty look, while seiko premier automatic is more like a dress watch (but with steel bracelet it obtains a more "universal" look and goes quite well with more relaxed dress code). In spite of the different style, I like them both. Seiko just does not have luminous hands, but I guess this is a general style for more expensive Seikos? Apart from style, another big difference is pricing - Seiko 6r20 Premier costs almost two times more. That's why I was actually asking about movements - I suspected that the movement value is the reason for that difference. br, risto
Tissots are overpriced, as are most branded swiss watches. The japanese manufacturers make much better watches for the money. The Seiko is a Seiko through and through, right down to the lubricants used. You get a newly developed in-house movement, p.r., and day-date, plus an intricate dial, case and bracelet that's quality through and through. It's hard to fault Seiko for fit and finish.

You don't get that with the PRS516, which uses a movement a million other watches use, from Sinn to Damasko to Titoni to some obscure mall brand. Stripped of the case, there's nothing to even remotely suggest its a Tissot, save for mebbe a stamped rotor.

As to the movement being the main cost differential, I'll say there are ETA 2836 watches that cost between 100 and mebbe 3000. Is a chronometre grade ETA worth 30 times the cost of a standard grade ETA? I think its more realistic to determine a watch's true worth by looking at the whole package, dial, hands, case, movement, bracelet and overall fit and finish.

edited by moderator: Please abstain from using terms which may be considered upsetting. Thank you. Mike
 

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Accuracy wise, can't comment without knowing the adjustment or grade in the Tissot but I won't be surprised if the Seiko trounces Tissot in the accuracy and reliability dept.quote]

I wondered if the Seiko was pound for pound the best value mech watch around. That was until a king gentleman posted a reply with some timings, showing the 2836 kicked the arse of Seiko and some chronometer grade movements in terms of accuracy.

I am convinced now that the 2836 is the best value movement around.

Great thing watches - 1000 people will have 1000 different opinions. It's good posting boards like this exist.
 

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Yea, my seiko OM hardly runs fast at all. It is by far the inaccurate watch I own. That being said I still like it.

My Tissot prs516 was $238.00 at jocobtime. Hardly overpriced and actually represents a better value for the dollar than the $135.00 I paid for the OM

Either way you are looking at good watches. IMHO the overpriced watches are the battery powered ones.

My Tissot
 
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Accuracy wise, can't comment without knowing the adjustment or grade in the Tissot but I won't be surprised if the Seiko trounces Tissot in the accuracy and reliability dept.quote]

I wondered if the Seiko was pound for pound the best value mech watch around. That was until a king gentleman posted a reply with some timings, showing the 2836 kicked the arse of Seiko and some chronometer grade movements in terms of accuracy.

I am convinced now that the 2836 is the best value movement around.

Great thing watches - 1000 people will have 1000 different opinions. It's good posting boards like this exist.
I'm not sure about that. The 2836 exists in many variants, some are modified with inhouse components. For example you can't compare a 2836 in a $1500 Sinn (which is chronometre grade) with a 2836 in some $150 mall brand. Truth is, once it leaves the ETA factories, the care taken in final assembly and adjustment cannot be reliably determined. Therefore the statement:

"ETA 2836 is the best value movement around"

is moot because there are no ETA branded watches on the market.

There are also no published accuracy specs for any of the ETA movements in any grades that I know of (by the brand, not ETA), precisely because of this discontinuity in the manufacturing process. Maybe that's why people like to have a COSC cert which forces the brands to test and guarantee a certain quality and accuracy in their watches.

Conversely, any Seiko watch uses only Seiko components, right down to the oils, and is assembled from the ground up in a Seiko factory. That is why Seiko is willing and able to give published specs for their watches. There is no guestimate involved and I'm sure Seiko will gladly regulate a watch that's outside of specs. I presume that's rare because most Seiko watches actually do much better than spec-ed.

Seiko also has, over the years, manufactured at least 20 different mechanical calibres aimed at different price points. To say the 2836 is the best value to all of them is unfair to say the least, given the wide price point spread for 2836 equipped watches.
 

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Understand what you are saying and all fair points. Don't get me wrong, I am a Seikophile and love the ethos of the company. They watches do come with a spec but from memory it is something like 20 or 30 secs deviation a day deviation. I am sure ETA would be happy to offer this level of assurance envelope to even their base movements.

The Seiko can easily be regulated to something pretty decent. I had a watchmaker do one. I am not so keen myself given the tiny movements needed and I am not sure if you have to adjust the beat as well. Best left to a pro with the right kit.

I was sure that a well regulated Seiko would give other mid/top end brands a real run for their money. I posted the suggestion and appealed for some machine based timings.

A top man came back and added some quantitative arguments to the debate. The 2836 was near the top of the pile. The Seiko was a 7s26, but I have heard the 6r20 is pretty much the same movement with some modification.

Here's the thread if you are interested. If anyone has any further insight or comments to that thread may be they can be accommodated on this one.

If anyone could give some machine positional timings, I am sure that would satisfy a lot of interest to both the Seiko and non Seiko community.

https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=70385
 
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Understand what you are saying and all fair points. Don't get me wrong, I am a Seikophile and love the ethos of the company. They watches do come with a spec but from memory it is something like 20 or 30 secs deviation a day deviation. I am sure ETA would be happy to offer this level of assurance envelope to even their base movements.

The Seiko can easily be regulated to something pretty decent. I had a watchmaker do one. I am not so keen myself given the tiny movements needed and I am not sure if you have to adjust the beat as well. Best left to a pro with the right kit.

I was sure that a well regulated Seiko would give other mid/top end brands a real run for their money. I posted the suggestion and appealed for some machine based timings.

A top man came back and added some quantitative arguments to the debate. The 2836 was near the top of the pile. The Seiko was a 7s26, but I have heard the 6r20 is pretty much the same movement with some modification.

Here's the thread if you are interested. If anyone has any further insight or comments to that thread may be they can be accommodated on this one.

If anyone could give some machine positional timings, I am sure that would satisfy a lot of interest to both the Seiko and non Seiko community.

https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=70385
I've been collecting data on my watches for a few months. I'll post them when I have enough data for analysis. They consist of a Seiko 6R15, an Orient FA, an ETA 2836, an ETA 2688, an ETA 2893 and an Eterna-matic Five Star adjusted to 6 positions and temp.

Right now, the Seiko and Orient (regulated by me, a novice) are No. 2 and 3. Leading the race is the 2893 (unadjusted, new from factory), which is probably standard or at most elabore grade.

As for the data posted, without more info on the methods and sample size, I shall refrain from commenting, except I think its really unfair to pit a $50 (ok, mebbe $100) Seiko 5 with watches costing many multiples more and come to the conclusion that the ETA 2836 is the best value. That may have made some sense if these watches were ETA branded watches coming in a single flavor of 2836. There's also much much more to Seiko than a 5, as ETA than a 2836, don't you think? The 7s26 was not designed for accuracy but rather, simplicity and reliability.

To be fair, the 2836 is a good, solid movement. Otherwise it wouldn't have become a workhorse. However, it is my experience that Seiko makes a better, more reliable watch, with better components/finish/dial/features/accuracy than any European manufacturer, dollar for dollar. Quality can be had Swiss Made, but it'll cost you.

Dollar wise, I'm just looking for a fair comparison here, apples for apples. Compare an Omega/Rolex, even Sinn to a Seiko Credor/Laurel/Grand Seiko automatic, instead of a Seiko 5, a complete example which costs less than an economique grade ETA 2836 movement by itself. Maybe the people doing these tests just aren't willing to rate an 'expensive' Seiko watch.

Would it interest anyone that Grand Seikos are adjusted to 6 positions, temp. and isochronism and spec-ed to +5/-3 s a day, among other things? This is tighter than a COSC chronometer, a test that's only for the movement (not the assembled watch) and adds at least $500 (for the consumer) to a non-certified version of the same watch. And you get JLC finish quality, all on a watch that costs less than/equal to a Seamaster or Sub.
 

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Would it interest anyone that Grand Seikos are adjusted to 6 positions, temp. and isochronism and spec-ed to +5/-3 s a day, among other things? This is tighter than a COSC chronometer, a test that's only for the movement (not the assembled watch) and adds at least $500 (for the consumer) to a non-certified version of the same watch. And you get JLC finish quality, all on a watch that costs less than/equal to a Seamaster or Sub.

Just realised the title states 6r20, not 6r15, so not so sure how much this one is based on 7s26, or the overall quality. Would be happy to defer to wiser counsel on this movement.

I agree the Seiko certification is tighter than Swiss COSC, but I don't understand the point you were trying to get across in that section. I am sure it is of massive interest to Seiko fans that the Grand series is certified.

I, like you , thought it was possible to rate watches by daily deviation. I was soon corrected by forum members and told that it is the positional and temperature insensitivity which marks movement behaviour. A watch may have 0s per day deviation, but it may be gaining 20 seconds over 16 hrs of wrist time, and losing 20 seconds face up at night. This is an extreme example but gets the point across. I you want to check the timings, then check ave deviations over a few weeks in crown up, down, left, dial up and dial down. A timing machine would be even better.

On what basis do you say that a Seiko (Grand or not) is finished to the same degree as a JLC?
 
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Just realised the title states 6r20, not 6r15, so not so sure how much this one is based on 7s26, or the overall quality. Would be happy to defer to wiser counsel on this movement.

I agree the Seiko certification is tighter than Swiss COSC, but I don't understand the point you were trying to get across in that section. I am sure it is of massive interest to Seiko fans that the Grand series is certified.

I, like you , thought it was possible to rate watches by daily deviation. I was soon corrected by forum members and told that it is the positional and temperature insensitivity which marks movement behaviour. A watch may have 0s per day deviation, but it may be gaining 20 seconds over 16 hrs of wrist time, and losing 20 seconds face up at night. This is an extreme example but gets the point across. I you want to check the timings, then check ave deviations over a few weeks in crown up, down, left, dial up and dial down. A timing machine would be even better.
The 6R20 is the 6R15 with added power reserve indicator and day display. Cost quite a bit less than the 6R20, if I may add.

The data I'm talking about is not just daily wear deviation, though I do keep track of how the watches do on the wrist. I line them up in full wind in a watch box and place the box in various positions for the night/weekend, corresponding to DU/DD etc. So far, I've not had a watch gain 20 s in one position and lose 20 s in another. It takes time to collect this kind of data.

As to Grand Seikos, let us not go there. I was just trying to point out that one shouldn't quote data that compares a Seiko 5 to many thousand dollar watches and state:

"ETA 2836 is the best value around."

That is grossly misleading.

I brought in the GS example just to show that its in the same dollar league as some of the watches compared and how its spec-ed performance is better, for the same/lower price. I don't want to get drawn into a debate on finishing (I regret the JLC comment, it is not directly relevant to the discussion) but suffice to say I've examined a Deville and a Sub, among others, under a 10x loupe and the guidance of a very nice gentleman. Let's not go there shall we, without actual watches in front of us as aids.
 
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