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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Sistem Tissot? Swiss Mechanicals at Quartz Prices - Worn & Wound

Interesting.

Article says Tissot claims this version was specifically designed for them, but it appears to be a 51 with a metal rotor instead of the clear one Swatch uses. Even the date wheel font looks familiar.

$400 for a leather strap puts them right in the middle of a $200 Sistem51 Irony w/leather and Tissot's entry levels models (like the Visodate) that have "proper" ETA automatics in the $600 ballpark.

I think it's unfortunate the "Swissmatic" designs are exceptionally plain and derivative, looking exactly like a Daniel Wellington or a Timex Weekender. As such, you're essentially paying $200 over a Swatch Irony simply for the convenience of normal watch case lugs and a sapphire crystal. It doesn't look like the Tissot cases are designed to be opened either.
 

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Interesting. Metal components, a higher beat rate, and yet still welded (and, I suppose, regulated by laser) so servicing is impossible.

I'm not sure where Tissot is going with this. I was more supportive of their move to silicon balance springs in the sub-$1,000 Powermatic 80 range. I like that sense of democratising features normally found only in more expensive watches. And whilst I think that's what Swatch also did with the Sistem51, I'm not sure that I'd say the same for a $600 Tissot with a modified Sistem51 movement.
 

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Glad you posted this. I just noticed the Tissot Swissmatic and was gonna ask the Forum about it.

Looking at the pics it looked like the System51.

Like you all I am wondering where they go with this. I just noticed it here:
Tissot T-Classic Everytime Swissmatic T109.407.11.052.00 T1094071105200 Men's Watch

but for about $300.

I hope they lower the price a bit and start competing with $200-$300 Seikos.

I agree, though, that the offerings so far are very plain, and overpriced. For much less (or the same $400) you can get a REALLY GOOD Seiko automatic or much more stylish watch from many other places. I feel Tissot should be more aggressive with these and take more chances in style. Less DW or Michael Kors looking and more of a daring Swiss avant grade, or better yet Art Deco designs!

Let's get some cool automatic art deco designs back into watch making. It's been a century, let's bring back art deco...

Just my 2-and-a-half cents
AlaskaJohnboy
 

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A gentleman in this thread says the movement also has a higher beat rate, all metal components, and it hacks. Even more interesting.
To get the facts straight about the C15.111 (Tissot "swissmatic"):

- 3Hz / 21600 alt/h.
- synthetic escapement
- NO hacking feature

There's no servicing for these Swissmatic movements. They're junked, and a NEW one goes in the watch. One has to see it as a spare part; like a new gasket, a new crown, etc.

BTW, Tissot never service "your" movement in your watch. Another reconditioned movement is used then. The old movement (7750, 2836 etc) goes in a servicing line to be refreshed, for another watch.

That's why the service prices are quite low.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
The more I think about it, the more I don't really like it at all. I think from Swatch Group's point of view, it makes sense, as it allows them to fill a gap, and make more use of the technology they've invested in.

Perhaps because I've come to associate Sistem51 with Swatch. From everything I read and understand about it, it is an innovative method of constructing a new type of mechanical watch movement, innovation that I think is good and worth pursuing, especially when it seems like in the watch world, most of that innovation occurs at the top of the market, not the bottom. But ultimately, I think I've always perceived Sistem51 as being above all, economical, and due to it's unserviceable nature, perfect for and in-line with Swatch.

I think I have a firm grasp on what a "Swatch customer" looks like (looks like me, lol). I certainly have admired various Tissots, considered buying a Visodate for awhile, but I don't really know what a "Tissot customer" looks like, or what they're ultimately seeking in a wrist-watch. Again it makes sense to introduce it at the bottom of Tissot's line up, since the Sistem51 Irony is the top of Swatch's line up...but I don't know how I would feel buying one. I don't know what sells the Tissot. In the Swatch, the Swatch customer, accustomed to quartz, is getting "mechanical innovation." The Tissot customer is getting "this is the cheapest mechanical movement ETA could engineer."
 

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I don't know what sells the Tissot. In the Swatch, the Swatch customer, accustomed to quartz, is getting "mechanical innovation." The Tissot customer is getting "this is the cheapest mechanical movement ETA could engineer."
Partially.

The target is a customer potentially interested in a 300€ mechanical Swiss Made watch, with a "refined" ( :-x ) case, especially if it's a trendy hip chic DW lookalike.

Cross-selling with the nato straps is well thought, as well, since these straps do generate a huge profit: the customer goes for 1 watch, and spends 50€ more on 2 natos. That's 15% more than expected.

The WIS is not the marketing target, definitely.

150-200€ --> swatch auto
250- sub 400--> tissot swissmatic
>400 --> tissot visodate or something hamilton branded


EDIT: before this latest design, think about the cheapest auto model they had, the carson jungfrau:

img61560770.jpg

Hmm, that reminds me of something... :think:;-)
 

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To get the facts straight about the C15.111 (Tissot "swissmatic"):

- 3Hz / 21600 alt/h.
- synthetic escapement
- NO hacking feature
Not out to contest your info at all - I'm genuinely interested in knowing the true specs of this movement. With that in mind, could you share the source of these details? I've Googled it but come up with nothing.
 

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Thanks. I didn't think to check the ETA site.

It's interesting (though not entirely without precedent) to note that a number of media reports to date have got the specs wrong.

Edit: the spec that interests me most is the "synthetic escape". The Sistem51 (C10111) had a synthetic balance wheel and a metal balance spring. The spec for the C15.111 isn't entirely clear but on first reading it does seem to suggest a synthetic balance spring (making an entirely synthetic escapement). This would be most extraordinary in a watch at this price point.
 

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Yeah, but love it or hate it, they are doing what Tissot has done for over a century- getting their automatic watches on peoples' wrists. They have "done" a lot of new watch tech over their years...

If you have one, you're like to buy another, especially if they can make that one run forever with proper, quick, cheap servicing.
 

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Edit: the spec that interests me most is the "synthetic escape". The Sistem51 (C10111) had a synthetic balance wheel and a metal balance spring. The spec for the C15.111 isn't entirely clear but on first reading it does seem to suggest a synthetic balance spring (making an entirely synthetic escapement). This would be most extraordinary in a watch at this price point.
171018110600129907.jpg
 

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Good find! It's always interesting to get more data.

So the balance / escapement set-up is probably lifted straight from the Sistem51. Synthetic parts abound, but still a metal balance spring. Similar accuracy spec, too.

Well, I hadn't really expected a silicon balance spring at this price point, I suppose. Tissot need to be a bit wary of mentioning the 'synthetic escapement' bit (not that I have seen it prominently in any of their marketing for this model, to date), lest they inadvertently lead people to the wrong conclusion.

Swatch had a similar problem with the marketing for the Sistem51. They announced that their revolutionary new movement had just 51 parts and one central screw. Many watch journalists took this to mean that the whole movement (or, at least, a very substantial amount of the movement) was held together by that one, single screw. In fact, of course, the movement was all welded together except for the rotor and it was the rotor that was held on by the screw. But such was the level of confusion surrounding this that even though the facts have since been cleared up, many reports on the Sistem51 even now still repeat the myth of the one central screw holding everything together.
 

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Is there any information about serviceability? I think the original Sistem51 movement has a lot of welded components inside and is not serviceable. I am curious to know if Tissot has found a work-around for this issue.
 

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Is there any information about serviceability? I think the original Sistem51 movement has a lot of welded components inside and is not serviceable. I am curious to know if Tissot has found a work-around for this issue.
There does appear to be a bit of a disconnect between some of the press reports and some of the specs and data that have subsequently been dug up and posted here, but reports so far indicate that the watch will not be serviceable

Edit : At least, the movement doesn't appear to be serviceable. It may be that the case and crystal could be serviced. If so, this would be a bit of a departure from the Sistem51. If the case back can be opened then there is also the theoretical possibility that minor servicing could be performed on the movement, but this would be limited to replacing the rotor and possibly rate regulation. I know the thing was set by laser in the factory and hasn't got a regulator lever, but the same is true of Tissot's Powermatic 80 range and yet there are ways (I believe I read somewhere) in which they can be regulated.

At this price point, however, it is rather more likely that Tissot would simply drop in a whole new movement than attempt any sort of movement maintenance.
 

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There does appear to be a bit of a disconnect between some of the press reports and some of the specs and data that have subsequently been dug up and posted here, but reports so far indicate that the watch will not be serviceable

Edit : At least, the movement doesn't appear to be serviceable. It may be that the case and crystal could be serviced. If so, this would be a bit of a departure from the Sistem51. If the case back can be opened then there is also the theoretical possibility that minor servicing could be performed on the movement, but this would be limited to replacing the rotor and possibly rate regulation. I know the thing was set by laser in the factory and hasn't got a regulator lever, but the same is true of Tissot's Powermatic 80 range and yet there are ways (I believe I read somewhere) in which they can be regulated.
No service on the movement AT ALL, whether it's from a tissot watch or a swatch one. No rotor replacement, nor any regulation. The set spiral length is laser-cut, and the metallic balance is poised. You can't adjust the rate, or add/remove mass on the balance.

Tissot case parts (gaskets, sapphire, crown, etc) are serviceable though, in a classic way.

An interesting URL (in french, though):
http://www.europastar.com/premiere/1004087120-exclusivite-swatch-desosser-la-sistem51.html

At this price point, however, it is rather more likely that Tissot would simply drop in a whole new movement than attempt any sort of movement maintenance.
Yes, that's the way.

Just a note: the mean list price of these Swissmatics @ADs is roughly USD400. An out-of-warranty full maintenance is about USD200, so 50% of the retail price.

Let's draw some conclusions here :)
Imagine the current new steel Sub getting a 4K service ? That'd be fun...
 

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Aren't there differences between the sistem51 movement and the swissmatic movement? IIRC, some additional parts are metal in the swissmatic movement.
 

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I read a article about how Tissot wants to get into lower end watches. This probably one of these new lower end things. Main goal is to attract customers by offering Swiss made, automatic etc... For essentially half the price. Considering stratospheric prices you get (at authorized dealers) for essentially same quartz movement you get in swatch chronograph it about time to lower prices. Whole segment is started to stagnate. Also Tissot not really pinnacle of quality and service at certain countries less professional than in other. There are a lot of watches with non serviceable movements doing just fine in time span of 20-30 years. Considering target price of the lower end Tissot watch it cheaper or equal value to dump it and buy new instead of servicing. My friend recently had issue with ETA based Certina chronograph. No one even tried to service it. He been offered only to replace movement. Considering Certina was dead after 4.5 years he decided to buy new Citizen. My thinking is company going disposable way. It proved to be profitable with Swatch.
 
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