WatchUSeek Watch Forums banner
21 - 40 of 353 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,376 Posts
Seiko 5 is just as disposable, yet it costs less, they use far better materials, it can be serviced if you feel like it (with Sistem51 you don't really have any choice) and they in general perform very well. Some argue about the serious looks and how "younger" people wouldn't wear them. But seeing how cheap Sistem51 models look like, i'd rather buy a G-Shock to my kid...
 
  • Like
Reactions: Frank107

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,183 Posts
I don't know what to expect from a %100 machine assembled movement at $200, but this conversation will be interesting.
Well. Equal quality/parts to already-mentioned 4r36, or maybe miyota's 8215.. Heck, even the old 7s26 would be a massive improvement. All in watches (steel-cased watches with mineral crystals) for around/under $200.....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
909 Posts
That is not a review, that is butchering (granted a cheap, but still) a watch, and then claiming that a piece of junk it is (with good magnification even premium brands does look crappy, it all depends on how good your photo lens is..)

Swatch has used plastic pallet fork and it still works - miracle some would say. However i believe the real swatch group watchmakers know better than to trust miracles. (they still work for people who bought them, don’t they) J

Edit:
This is a review from a watchmaker, as was mentioned by ArthurM
The OP link to a "review" is what i was doing to watches at an age of 6, i believe, breaking them apart...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
909 Posts
Well. Equal quality/parts to already-mentioned 4r36, or maybe miyota's 8215.. Heck, even the old 7s26 would be a massive improvement. All in watches (steel-cased watches with mineral crystals) for around/under $200.....
Most of vostok line watches has that and for less than 70 bucks, hmt does it for even less and i'm not even talking about their chineese counterparts...So based on that, Seiko(Citizen) has yet to make it better don't they (based on your logic)?

Maybe i missed something amoung the lines, but has Swatch positioned system 51 as the cheapest automatic, was that original goal, or did they market it that way?

What they brag about is limited quantity of parts / fully automatic assembly / long power reserve / high accuracy (seiko 5 manufacturer specs are within ~ 1min) / no maintanance (this is 200$ watch, be reasonable) - and did they fail in this department?

As for the plastic parts - they have yet to prove their unreliability, don't they? give a chance :)

now flame on..
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,183 Posts
Most of vostok line watches has that and for less than 70 bucks, hmt does it for even less and i'm not even talking about their chineese counterparts...So based on that, Seiko(Citizen) has yet to make it better don't they (based on your logic)?
Let's take your post full circle, then. Compared to hmt's and vostoks, the system51 is completely awful in every way. (Though I don't know.. plastic case or fake-steel brass case, which is worse...)

What they brag about is limited quantity of parts / fully automatic assembly / long power reserve / high accuracy (seiko 5 manufacturer specs are within ~ 1min) / no maintanance (this is 200$ watch, be reasonable) - and did they fail in this department?
Based on the timegrapher, yes, they failed on the accuracy. "No maintenance" - you don't get to claim that goal simply because you've glued the whole thing shut. I can put some miracle glue on my seiko5, is that going to make it "no maintenance"? Going by swiss logic, apparently yes? Limited quantity of parts: aaaaand what's the benefit there for me? I can still get a *cheaper* watch that is made of *better* parts (and more of them), and if it breaks down, it can be fixed.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
909 Posts
Let's take your post full circle, then. Compared to hmt's and vostoks, the system51 is completely awful in every way. (Though I don't know.. plastic case or fake-steel brass case, which is worse...)

Based on the timegrapher, yes, they failed on the accuracy. "No maintenance" - you don't get to claim that goal simply because you've glued the whole thing shut. I can put some miracle glue on my seiko5, is that going to make it "no maintenance"? Going by swiss logic, apparently yes? Limited quantity of parts: aaaaand what's the benefit there for me? I can still get a *cheaper* watch that is made of *better* parts (and more of them), and if it breaks down, it can be fixed.
[/COLOR]
Stainless steel is far superior you claim than plastic (any plastic, correct?). I would disagree, but what do i know...

Based on timegrapher? did you mesured your's ( i assume you have one, no?)? They are no COSC watches, you can't expect them to (usually for cheap watches manufacturers specs for accuracy are within 1 minute a day, why would you demand more?)
I've seen online they have performed pretty well, some of them don't - that is obvious, but still pretty decent.

No maintenance - means exactly what it is, read literally. That is a bit of marketing gimmick I admit, however it still means that you do not have to interfere with a watch movement in any way - once you are dissatisfied with it's performance (out of specs) you can return under warranty or throw away (most cheap watches end up their cycle like that anyway). (hate misplaced comparisons but - you can swap a battery in your htc, while apple does not allow you to do so, so HTC>Apple?)

some watchmakers mentioned they made a breakthrough by reducing parts and automating of the whole process, this is what i value most in system 51 (i understand that you don't, you have your far superior S5), and which (technology) they will use in further developing of their watches. It's a step forward from my perspective, technology wise that is. What will come up of it, i guess time will tell.

At the very least, one has to appreciate the efforts of making something out of box of traditional (cheap / mass) watchmaking, other than moving production to China to minimize the labor costs...

I understand that seiko fanb's will chime in, so it's a lost battle :-(
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
23,122 Posts
To put thing into perspective, this is not the first time that the Swatch group has dabbled with plastic pallet forks and plastic escape wheels. There was the Tissot "Astrolon" plastic watch with the calibre 2250 that had a plastic pallet fork and escape wheel.





There was also the ETA 2841 and ETA 2842 used in the Swatch Automatics, which had a plastic pallet fork paired with a metal escape wheel, which is an even worse combination from the point of view of durability.




In any case, I think the Swatch group probably has quite a bit of data about the long term durability of this arrangement, and I doubt it's going to fail after a year.

If I recall, part of the motivation for using the plastic pallet fork in the ETA 2841/2842s was that it was self-lubricating, so I suspect its use in the Sistem51 is intentional, and is intended to address the fact that the movement cannot be serviced.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,267 Posts
Personally i feel that tear down was done with prejudice and not an open mind. At least wear the watch for a period of time to test it's accuracy and power reserve. I owned one briefly and while it runs fast off the wrist, it does keep time to the tune of +5s per day if worn during the day and left on my winder at night. Plus i wore mine in the rain and into the shower...no water resistance issues at all.

Swatch did not position this as the cheapest automatic watch nor the most value for money; they made it to showcase their new robotic manufacturing capability and i am certain the techniques used in manufacturing the Sistem 51 will eventually be further refined and filter down to other Swatch or even other lower tier brands in the Swatch Group. In this sense i believe they did a decent job (though the case designs leave much to be desired)...great power reserve and in the case of my Sistem 51, very decent time keeping on the wrist.

Durability? This is not a watch that is meant to kept for a life time..BUT they were confident enough to give it a 2 years international warranty; hence if it breaks down or run out of spec within that 2 years, they will replace it.

I know Swatch does not get any love on WUS, but come on guys, we have to be objective.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
597 Posts
In fairness to Swatch, the use of plastic parts isn't NECESSARILY a horrible thing. There are many types and grades of plastic.

On the other hand, Swatch has always sold overpriced watches. They've always charged $100 for plastic quartz watches that are like $10 Chinatown watches. So why is it a shock that they are selling an automatic watch for $150 that is worth $15? If you are willing to pay extra for the brand and the style, I think it's cool that they are offering an automatic that is fun to look at. Long lasting, high quality heirloom watches has NEVER been Swatch's thing so...

I thought the review in the OP was silly- if you are such a watch snob that an inferior movement makes you sick why are you even looking at a brightly colored plastic watch?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,167 Posts
To put thing into perspective, this is not the first time that the Swatch group has dabbled with plastic pallet forks and plastic escape wheels. There was the Tissot "Astrolon" plastic watch with the calibre 2250 that had a plastic pallet fork and escape wheel.





There was also the ETA 2841 and ETA 2842 used in the Swatch Automatics, which had a plastic pallet fork paired with a metal escape wheel, which is an even worse combination from the point of view of durability.




In any case, I think the Swatch group probably has quite a bit of data about the long term durability of this arrangement, and I doubt it's going to fail after a year.

If I recall, part of the motivation for using the plastic pallet fork in the ETA 2841/2842s was that it was self-lubricating, so I suspect its use in the Sistem51 is intentional, and is intended to address the fact that the movement cannot be serviced.
My engineering background is civil, so I get to freely admit that I don't know what that means. I hear this from time to time about plastic components: self-lubricating. What does that mean? Tiny bits of plastic rub off and then they're now classified as lubricant?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Der Amf

·
Registered
testing testing something pizza
Joined
·
24,488 Posts
Doesn't even the Speedy Pro have a plastic piece in it? And that it's there because it's self-lubricating, and most of us don't b1tch about it?

Taking the jewels out of the pallet fork definitely reduces the part number, and Swatch has done it before. I'd like to hear from someone who can say what type of plastic this is.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
133 Posts
It is probably a type of polyurethane which is very tough, easy to work with, durable, but will not last forever. It is used in bushings in the automotive industry for suspension, timing components, etc... Race cars use it a lot. I do not necessarily see a problem with it. It will never need oiling and thus, is not really an attractant of dirt. Maybe not worth that amount of money, but interesting. Probably collectible in the future.


The watch is listed as a novelty watch. Not too sure what you all expected. Granted, I do not think that I could have dropped $100+ on a watch just to take a grinder to it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,872 Posts
If it wasn't for this post and link to the 51 tear down, I would never have looked at it...It is of no interest to me.
This mind is not curious and doesn't want to know.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
7,423 Posts
I'm throwing the BS flag on the article. When I put my Sistem 51 Blue on the Timegrapher, I got much different (and far better) results than did this author.

https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/swatch-sistem-51-sistem-blue-one-first-u-s-pics-1021599-3.html

Quoting from my review:

"Timekeeping is what one expects, though maybe not as earth-shattering as hype has suggested. On my Timegrapher, I measured:

Dial Up: +12
Dial Down: +9
Crown Right: +5
Crown Up: +12
Crown Left: +8
Crown Down: +8

Beat error was 0.3 ms or better in all positions, and it reached that value only in one position. The beat trace was sloppy, but not as sloppy as my Seiko Black Monster. The balance wheel is 9.5mm, and the beat frequency is 3 Hz. Positional variationi is quite low. These timings are with a partial wind--with a 90-hour power reserve, I'm sure I did not fully wind it. More like about 10 turns, and that will often make the movement run fast. On the wrist, a limited timing test has it at +3 seconds/day."

I did a timing test on a full wind later in that thread, and a accuracy test over several days. With the beat error I got being far better that what the author got, and better than the 4R36 in my Black Monster, my data refutes his comparison to a Seiko 5. Both of us only tested one watch, but other reviews are close to my results.

Rick "wondering if he did his timing test after attacking it with a dremel tool" Denney
 
21 - 40 of 353 Posts
Top