WatchUSeek Watch Forums banner

1 - 16 of 16 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
11 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Hi all -- does anyone know where I could buy a small quantity of braking grease? I feel silly spending $30+ for 20 mL when I will use less than 1 mL of it before it expires. FWIW, I'm in the Austin, TX area. Thanks!
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,862 Posts
First, it doesn't expire. At least it doesn't have a date on it. Second, it's more like $90 for a tiny amount, maybe two ml. I'm talking about Kluber Chronogrease. Not sure where you get braking grease for the price/amount you mentioned.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,862 Posts
I have my suspicions about 8201. P-125 Chronogrease is almost as thick as tar. 8201 is described as a semi-liquid grease. Moebius does have a lubrication chart that lists barrel walls but doesn't discern between automatic and fixed anchor http://www.moebius-lubricants.ch/sites/default/themes/moebius/extras/pdf/tableEN.pdf. It lists 8201 for barrel walls of clocks, which are obviously anchored. It lists 8217 and two others for watch barrel walls, still not making a differentiation between automatic and anchored. It also lists 8201 for mainsprings.

I see ofrei describes 8217 as a braking grease for automatics. They say Bergeon lists it as a strong braking grease while another source lists it as normal. I do remember some recommendation here that some movements (ETA 775X) need a strong braking grease to function properly and that Kluber was the correct grease. But on the other hand, 8217 is about the same price as 8201 so if it works, it scratches your itch.

Get used to buying a lot more lubricant than you will ever use. That's a selling feature on the synthetic lubes (9XXX); they have a six year shelf life.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
237 Posts
I think 8217 would be right choice...
Hence, I tried few automatics with 8201 on barrel wall and had no issues...
Will compare with 8217 to see the difference.
However, if automatic mainspring is in good condition, it will not slip easily because of big tension on "Two tail" end...

Sent from my ELE-L29 using Tapatalk
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,862 Posts
The table I linked to above shows 8212 for aluminum and 8213 for brass. 8217 doesn't have a material.

I thought all barrels were made of brass, does anyone have an idea what the missing material could be, perhaps plated brass?

BTW, I have some cheapy chinese movements without braking grease. I don't know the state of the windup when it slips, but when it does, it probably slips a third of the reserve. It sounds like reeling in a tape measure. That's what braking grease stops and the stronger it is, the less you lose when it does slip.

Thanks for the link, I just bought 5ml each of 8201, 8212, 8213 and 8217 just to play around with. I do have an Anniversary clock that needs a new mainspring so I'll at least use the 8201 on the new spring.

Incidentally, modern alloy springs come pre-lubricated so never use an ultrasonic on them. Old-school blue steel springs need lubricant to protect them from moisture. That's what you'd use 8201 on. Alloy springs are gray in color and may have a whitish or blueish tint from the dry film lubricant.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,862 Posts
Have you used it?

Interesting how much difference the vendor's descriptions are. The Moebius chart recommends it for "Pull-out and push pieces, winding mechanism, spring pin".
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
237 Posts
Have you used it?

Interesting how much difference the vendor's descriptions are. The Moebius chart recommends it for "Pull-out and push pieces, winding mechanism, spring pin".
You can use Molycote DX for that purpose... Doesn't need to be Moebius.... 8201 can be used on spring and 8217 for barrel wall... That is my understanding of oiling chart.

Sent from my ELE-L29 using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,408 Posts
Doesn't the amount of hold afforded by braking grease have to be "balanced" to some degree? Getting the strongest braking grease seems like a bad idea to me. You want it to slip at a reasonable point or you'll be putting a lot of strain on components.

I'd sort of think the strongest isn't what you want. You need to sacrifice some reserve for safety.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,862 Posts
Here's what you get for $90:
15330478


Shown to scale:
15330479


To give you an idea of how stiff it is:
15330480


That's a one inch sewing pin on a 1.00 mm screwdriver. It doesn't stay that way forever; I had to be pretty quick with the camera. But, it's pretty stiff.

ExpiredWatchdog
Master of the Obvious
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,572 Posts
Doesn't the amount of hold afforded by braking grease have to be "balanced" to some degree? Getting the strongest braking grease seems like a bad idea to me. You want it to slip at a reasonable point or you'll be putting a lot of strain on components.

I'd sort of think the strongest isn't what you want. You need to sacrifice some reserve for safety.
The P125 is the stickiest braking grease I have ever used, and in only a few instances was it too sticky. The grease has to allow the bridle to slip, but then catch again before unwinding too much. I've used it on a wide variety of movements (vintage and modern) without issue. The few instances where it was an issue were very rare.

You will see too strong grease manifested in rebanking, so it pretty easy to detect. If you have substantially higher amplitude in the first 15 minutes after winding, then there's a chance the grease is too strong or you may have applied too much. Not a lot is needed, and most issues come from applying too much, rather than the grease being too strong.

It seems some feel that lack of amplitude means more grease should be added. This is usually in cases where the amplitude issues are elsewhere in the movement, but the person doing the work doesn't have the knowledge to find it, the skill to fix it, or the willingness to even look. When I get these watches in, the grease has migrated all over the mainspring surfaces, the barrel cover and the barrel drum, and this actually kills amplitude in the long run as the spring doesn't unwind freely.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,862 Posts
I bought a small amount of the following Moebius greases from the site noted above (less than $20 each):

15365324


I tried the same experiment as above with each grease. None came close to what Kluber could do. The most viscous was 8213 and took maybe a quarter second for the pin to rotate down to vertical. In a single instance it stayed hooked for the screwdriver for a couple seconds but I couldn't get it to do it again. The others barely held the pin, almost like there was nothing there at all.

I remember @Archer saying that Kluber is necessary for movements with a powerful battery (ETA 7750 was his example) so maybe the other greases are fine for a pedestrian movement like the 2824. I have some 2824 clones that I can experiment with if I can think of a good way to compare the effectiveness, maybe by testing the reserve statistically.

Anyway, I've got a lot of grease that I probably won't consume any time soon. It's OK, I've got a box of Aerospace greases that my dad collected, some of the lot dates are in the late '50s. I've got a quart can of Molycote and another of silicone grease. Anyone want to buy some?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,425 Posts
Cas-Ker has Moebius 8302 for $36. It has molybdenum disulphide for bridles of automatic watches.
Moebius 8302 Disulphide Grease
Samantha
Thanks Samantha, for casting a vote for this older favorite. I bought a Moebius "Assortment of Eight Current Moebius Products for Watches and Clocks" some time ago, and have used 8302 on automatics.

I apply just a thin coating around the barrel--being careful to keep it thin, and not see any lumps--and go from there.

My further sense is that Archer is an excellent source for real-world information: although many of us have opinions on what may or may not work, Archer speaks from that most demanding of taskmaster's: Experience!

Michael.

ps: speaking of Automatics; I'm just finishing a service on my very first AS 1902. Nice movement, although it seems a bit complicated in some aspects. I will admit to being a bit unhappy upon disassembling the auto winder: a delicate little mechanism, with parts that need to be gingerly placed into their spots / springs that must play upon them just so, and all this maintained as a plate is lowered upon them / gently screwed down / parts manipulated through holes purposed-made in the cover / and...HOPE that all drops together.

It wasn't really all that difficult, but I was reminded of all the non-automatic watches I've worked on over the years, and found myself wishing that it was a nice, simple, no-fuss, Hamilton 747 instead.

Sure, the automatics are snazzy and fun to watch spinning all around, but--GEEZ!--take a look sometime at something like the Hamilton 747, and then ask yourself a question about something like the 1902: REALLY??
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,862 Posts
^^^ Might it look something like this:
15367882


I've got a couple AS 1361N's that I plan to get around to eventually. The automatic does put me off.

It just occurs to me that between 1483 and 183 sits a ratchet. 1474 is the spring to hold it engaged.

It's interesting that this movement was their first entry into automatics and it's also the first tech sheet that shows this level of detail. I guess they figured Joe Watchmaker (no relation to you) would be put off by the complexity and refuse to service the second one .
 
1 - 16 of 16 Posts
Top