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These 2 watches appear to be the same. In fact, the details of the watch shipping from Timefactors seems to match the Fullswing drawings. How is it that they would have different depth ratings?
I dont know if that is it, but it seems as if the crown/tube is different. Aside from that I came to the conclusion that water rating with micro brands largely seems to be a fashion statement. I actually very much doubt some of those 1000-2000 m ratings that pop up more and more often. (not that anybody would ever find out, right ;)
 

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I think this rehashes the BS posted in 2013 whether the TF watch is made by full swing or not. Not is the answer.
 

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I actually very much doubt some of those 1000-2000 m ratings that pop up more and more often. (not that anybody would ever find out, right ;)
Why not? Tie one to the end of a thousand fathoms of line and chuck it overboard in deep water. If it fails, forum thread + warranty repair.
 

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I think this rehashes the BS posted in 2013 whether the TF watch is made by full swing or not. Not is the answer.
Yes I remember that thread....it got heated up pretty quickly when a certain well-known HK-based company owner came and added it's grain of salt in the discussion.

TLDR, the conclusion was in fact that the PRS-68 has nothing to do with HK watch industry according to Eddie.

Cheers!
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Yes I remember that thread....it got heated up pretty quickly when a certain well-known HK-based company owner came and added it's grain of salt in the discussion.

TLDR, the conclusion was in fact that the PRS-68 has nothing to do with HK watch industry according to Eddie.

Cheers!

Odd that they seem to share a common author. Many of the drawings on the Timefactors site show Yuan Cha Li as the author (when the cell is not blank) same as the Fullswing document. Does Yuan Cha Li work for Fullswing or Time factors or perhaps both? If I had to guess I would bet that was the name of a Fullswing employee.

I read some of the discussion you mentioned. I think the story was that Kemmner was doing the "finishing" of the cases in Germany. Is that the same Kemmner that sells German made cases with Chinese movements on ebay?

Kemmner "Art Deco" Klassische Herrenuhr Neu | eBay

It seems pretty clear to me what the origins of the cases are. More importantly though is whether one manufacture is under rating their product or another perhaps over rating? I can see some people being indifferent about the origins of a product but what about the technical specifications.
 

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I think this rehashes the BS posted in 2013 whether the TF watch is made by full swing or not. Not is the answer.
Umm... really? There is some resemblance there.

But still that doesn't mean that they aren't allowed to buy the technical drawings and license from Full Swing and then get some case blanks from China and finish them in Europe as iirc they said they did.
 

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In the similar vein as Clemens and his many iterations of his Orca/Kalmar had different depth ratings as well.
For instance, the orginal Kalmar had a different rating depending on the case back, with sapphire visible case back or solid.
The newest iteration of the Orca also has a higher depth rating due to the crystal but it still has the old depth rating printed on it.
I guess, after a certain depth you can choose any number in between and it doesn't make much difference.
 

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Does anyone have the link to this thread? :p

Yes I remember that thread....it got heated up pretty quickly when a certain well-known HK-based company owner came and added it's grain of salt in the discussion.

TLDR, the conclusion was in fact that the PRS-68 has nothing to do with HK watch industry according to Eddie.

Cheers!
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I think this rehashes the BS posted in 2013 whether the TF watch is made by full swing or not. Not is the answer.
Not?

Is that based on some facts or merely emotion and he said she said? The only evidence I have seen suggests otherwise. I do not believe the question was ever actually answered previously.

The shipping PRS 68 more closely resembles the Fullswing drawing then it does the one posted on the Timefactors website. Note the lack of the horizontal groove detail in the actual product. Some one should measure the tube. That would be an intersting FACT.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Umm... really? There is some resemblance there.

But still that doesn't mean that they aren't allowed to buy the technical drawings and license from Full Swing and then get some case blanks from China and finish them in Europe as iirc they said they did.
I suppose anything is possible and people are entitled to believe what ever they like.

I do not believe they claim they license it. That would be a different twist on the story. If I am not mistaken Fullswing is not n the business of design to license. I think the model is design to build. Are there any other examples of them licensing their designs?

"finish" is an interesting word choice. It could mean just about anything. I suppose that is on purpose.
 

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I own this watch and can't really see what the problem is you seem to have drawings from full swing and are implying that ful swing made the prs is this correct?
where did you get these drawings from?
the watch you call the lpg261 what is it where is it? Is it in production?
does it really matter if it is made by full swing anyway if your correct?

like I said I own this watch and it is extremely well built and finished so to me it doesn't matter where it was made
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I own this watch and can't really see what the problem is you seem to have drawings from full swing and are implying that ful swing made the prs is this correct?
where did you get these drawings from?
the watch you call the lpg261 what is it where is it? Is it in production?
does it really matter if it is made by full swing anyway if your correct?

like I said I own this watch and it is extremely well built and finished so to me it doesn't matter where it was made
You are correct. I suspect it is made by Fullswing. BTW, there is nothing wrong with that. I own a couple of their products and find them to be outstanding.

If your watch doesn't have a horizontal groove detail in the bezel then I would think it is more similar to the Fullswing doc. If that is the case then you may own the Fullswing production version.

Why does it matter? If there are liberties taken with the representation of origin then perhaps there are liberties taken with other aspects of the product.

I find it had to believe that buyers of a tool watch would be indifferent to the depth rating being over rated or unverified. Perhaps the guy who never intends to get the watch wet wouldn't care but certainly someone who was taking it beyond a depth of 100 ft would.

Besides there are people who are making a purchase decision based on the perceived value of European manufacturing. If that isn't the case then they deserve to be properly informed. Is it OK for someone to extract extra value out of a transaction based on a misrepresentation of depth rating, origins or otherwise?
 

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Well the only thing I could suggest is buy one then take it diving to 200mts and if it leaks send it back,

is is it only the smiths diver you have issues with or do you feel the same about other micro brands concerning the depth ratings? Just curious why all you posts to this point are about thr prs68
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Well the only thing I could suggest is buy one then take it diving to 200mts and if it leaks send it back,

is is it only the smiths diver you have issues with or do you feel the same about other micro brands concerning the depth ratings? Just curious why all you posts to this point are about thr prs68
Your suggestion won't work. The MO appears to be that once you discover a defect he takes the position that you (the customer) damaged the product. It would be an expensive experiment. You can read several threads where customers have this experience (crystals popping out, bezels turning freely etc...).

I think by his own admission repairs are sent to the German Factory (? where ever that might be....Kemmner's apartment) for repair. In that context, the business strategy seems to be push back on defective returns. Leaving the customers who experience issues to fend for themselves. If the 0-5% who have an issue take their lumps and move on perhaps the right economic decision?

Interesting question on Micros in general. I bought micros because I felt like it was enthusiasts supporting other enthusiasts. This discovery has made me wonder if they are all the same. I can't say I look at them the same way. I perhaps naively believed the information and claims were true and not just marketing BS. I never felt the need to investigate. I know the big companies do it but for some reason it is more shocking/offensive to me when it comes from within the enthusiast community and even more so when the misinformation is actively promoted.
 

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I suppose anything is possible and people are entitled to believe what ever they like.

I do not believe they claim they license it. That would be a different twist on the story. If I am not mistaken Fullswing is not n the business of design to license. I think the model is design to build. Are there any other examples of them licensing their designs?

"finish" is an interesting word choice. It could mean just about anything. I suppose that is on purpose.
Yeah I'm sorry, I suspected my sentence might get misunderstood like that but still didn't bother to change it. Let me fix it now and also clarify what I meant:

It doesn't mean they aren't allowed to buy the technical drawings and/or license from Full Swing (=> my opinion, not their statement). At least they said they they got the case blanks from China and finished them in Europe (=> what they said).

Now... I'm not sure they used the word "finished" in that other thread (although I believe so) and they might have also explained in more detail what they actually did with the cases. I just stated the short version of what I remember from there. So basically just because I said they "finished the cases in Europe", doesn't mean they didn't explain it in more detail. I didn't intend to make them look fishy by not quoting all of what they said.

But then again those sketches do look "sketchy" (^^) in the sense that they stated that the cases weren't made in China/HK while it might be possible that they were because of the similar sketches.
 

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Your suggestion won't work. The MO appears to be that once you discover a defect he takes the position that you (the customer) damaged the product. It would be an expensive experiment. You can read several threads where customers have this experience (crystals popping out, bezels turning freely etc...).

I think by his own admission repairs are sent to the German Factory (? where ever that might be....Kemmner's apartment) for repair. In that context, the business strategy seems to be push back on defective returns. Leaving the customers who experience issues to fend for themselves. If the 0-5% who have an issue take their lumps and move on perhaps the right economic decision?

Interesting question on Micros in general. I bought micros because I felt like it was enthusiasts supporting other enthusiasts. This discovery has made me wonder if they are all the same. I can't say I look at them the same way. I perhaps naively believed the information and claims were true and not just marketing BS. I never felt the need to investigate. I know the big companies do it but for some reason it is more shocking/offensive to me when it comes from within the enthusiast community and even more so when the misinformation is actively promoted.
I think the Customer Service question is more important than where it was made question. Both are valid, but as a customer, if the company won't take care of issues and the tactic, it's the customer's fault, is used to avoid servicing the customer, than that fact alone would make me not want to buy the watch, regardless if the thing was genuinely made in Germany.

Regarding actual water resistance. Deep Blue heard all the comments and posted this video to quell the rumblings awhile ago (at least where they and their Depthmaster 3000m are concerned).
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Yeah I'm sorry, I suspected my sentence might get misunderstood like that but still didn't bother to change it. Let me fix it now and also clarify what I meant:

It doesn't mean they aren't allowed to buy the technical drawings and/or license from Full Swing (=> my opinion, not their statement). At least they said they they got the case blanks from China and finished them in Europe (=> what they said).

Now... I'm not sure they used the word "finished" in that other thread (although I believe so) and they might have also explained in more detail what they actually did with the cases. I just stated the short version of what I remember from there. So basically just because I said they "finished the cases in Europe", doesn't mean they didn't explain it in more detail. I didn't intend to make them look fishy by not quoting all of what they said.

But then again those sketches do look "sketchy" (^^) in the sense that they stated that the cases weren't made in China/HK while it might be possible that they were because of the similar sketches.
Thanks for the clarification.

I also need to clarify . I did not intend to imply you picked the word "finish." I believe that is actually the word that they used and I believe it was intentionally chosen because it is vague and cryptic. Does a quick rub with a polish cloth constitute finish??

I suspect the product is brokered through Kemmner so that German origins can be claimed.

Kemmenr sells his own watches with Chinese movements in them. I suppose possible but unusual to go through the trouble of making a case in Germany but placing a Chinese clone movement in it.

Use google earth to look up the Kemmner business address. Residential or Industrial/Factory?

I feel ripped off.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
I think the Customer Service question is more important than where it was made question. Both are valid, but as a customer, if the company won't take care of issues and the tactic, it's the customer's fault, is used to avoid servicing the customer, than that fact alone would make me not want to buy the watch, regardless if the thing was genuinely made in Germany.

Regarding actual water resistance. Deep Blue heard all the comments and posted this video to quell the rumblings awhile ago (at least where they and their Depthmaster 3000m are concerned).
The customer service issue is real. I have personally experienced it as have others (based on the threads)

The origins issue is more about integrity. Each personal places a different value on this. I for one would pay more for a Passat made in Germany then I would pay for one made in China.

Having said that there are great products with tremendous value that come from China. I own several watches that are among my favorites that I know to be of Chinese origin. Origin is still a factor in the value consideration and those watches are considered among my favorites because the value they represent. High quality tremendous price. That is different from very high price very high quality also among my favorites.

Doesn't the customer deserve to know the truth or at least not be misled? The only reason to make a claim of European origins is to alter the value proposition for those customers for whom that is a consideration.

One person may care about having a legitimate depth rating another may care about the true origins another warranty and customer service.
 
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