[HilltopMichael]

Very informative - thanks! Looking forward to the second part.

I've always wondered if there was a way to determine the grade of movement used just by looking at it. If it's COSC certified it'll have the serial number stamped on it, and presumably it'll have the highest quality components. However, it's still not clear to me if the other three grades can be visually distinguished from one another, or if a lower grade might still have bits and pieces from a higher grade.

I have a few watches with the 2824 inside, but only one with a display back. Looking at that watch, I see straight spokes on the balance wheel and an Incabloc shock protection. Straight spokes should mean Standard and Elaboré, but Incabloc is used on the higher ones? It did earlier state that the Incabloc may be an option on the lower grades. The movement itself is nothing special to look at - looks like a mostly matte finish. But it does run alright - about -1/3 per day. And that's every day, not +9 seconds one day and -10 the next.

 

[ulackfocus]

I've always wondered if there was a way to determine the grade of movement used just by looking at it. If it's COSC certified it'll have the serial number stamped on it, and presumably it'll have the highest quality components. However, it's still not clear to me if the other three grades can be visually distinguished from one another, or if a lower grade might still have bits and pieces from a higher grade.

I have a few watches with the 2824 inside, but only one with a display back. Looking at that watch, I see straight spokes on the balance wheel and an Incabloc shock protection. Straight spokes should mean Standard and Elaboré, but Incabloc is used on the higher ones? It did earlier state that the Incabloc may be an option on the lower grades. The movement itself is nothing special to look at - looks like a mostly matte finish. But it does run alright - about -1/3 per day. And that's every day, not +9 seconds one day and -10 the next.

You might have answered your own question - Incabloc is offered as an upgrade on the lower 2 grades so your movement is either Standard or Elaboré. Pretty good performance out of it too. :-!

As soon as I have a couple questions answered I'll be posting the second part - and one thing I'm still searching out is IWC's modifications. I know a few of them but would like to know all of them.

 

[SolitarySoul]

Nice compilation of material.

I have to take issue, though, with the "Smoke and Mirrors" statement being used so broadly. I don't doubt that it's sometimes true, especially when movements are decorated just for aesthetics' sake. However, in the case of Omega's 1164, I don't feel deceived one bit.

Omega's version of the 7750:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140442155933&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fshop.ebay.com%3A80%2F%3F_from%3DR40%26_trksid%3Dp4712.m570.l1313%26_nkw%3D140442155933%26_sacat%3DSee-All-Categories%26_fvi%3D1&_rdc=1

Stock 7750:

ETA Valjoux 7750 Automatic Chronograph Watch movement - eBay (item 140422163997 end time Oct-27-10 10:40:08 PDT)

There's obviously so much additional work done (understanding that it actually takes place on a brethren ETA workbench) that I think the extra $$ is fair (with the caveat that this whole "watch thing" can't really be justified, since our cell phones tackle the basic task of telling time). I suspect that other reputable brands, like IWC, are just, if not more, modified.

 

[ulackfocus]

Nice compilation of material.

I have to take issue, though, with the "Smoke and Mirrors" statement being used so broadly. I don't doubt that it's sometimes true, especially when movements are decorated just for aesthetics' sake. However, in the case of Omega's 1164, I don't feel deceived one bit.

Omega's version of the 7750:

OMEGA cal. 1164, basic VALJOUX 7750, CHRONOMETER cert. - eBay (item 140442155933 end time Oct-17-10 04:18:29 PDT)

Stock 7750:

ETA Valjoux 7750 Automatic Chronograph Watch movement - eBay (item 140422163997 end time Oct-27-10 10:40:08 PDT)

There's obviously so much additional work done (understanding that it actually takes place on a brethren ETA workbench) that I think the extra $$ is fair (with the caveat that this whole "watch thing" can't really be justified, since our cell phones tackle the basic task of telling time). I suspect that other reputable brands, like IWC, are just, if not more, modified.

I think you're in for a let down when you read part 2.

 

[bluloo]

Excellent OP and follow up discussion.

:-!

 

[SolitarySoul]

I think you're in for a let down when you read part 2.

I read your PM and I disagree that I'll be disappointed.

Does anyone really think that an Omega 7750, or an IWC 7750, or an ETA Chronometer 7750, or (insert chronometer brand here) 7750, are significantly different? And of course, since Omega and ETA are brothers, everyone knows that both of their 7750's come off the same bench, whether they say Omega or ETA.

If you're going to reveal in Part 2 that Breitling and IWCs, etc, come straight out of ETAs shop as chronometers, too, that shouldn't be all that surprising either. After all, how much can any brand really modify them? This isn't rocket science!

Truth is, it's part of the reason I don't own an IWC Spitfire Chrono, but instead own an Omega Speedmaster Date Chronometer; they both have essentially the same specs and I ask myself, "how different could the 7750s be?" (btw - I LOVE the spitfires, just struggle with the price difference)

Now, if IWC were casing up base 7750s and calling them "modified", THAT would be news (involving smoke and mirrors and deception).

PS - go Phils!

 

[Dr.Brian]

I would like to know also, and it's given IWC a lot of credit for their contribution to the movement, but if it's so "reworked by IWC that it's not even the same movement anymore", then to my mind it becomes an IWC movement which it obviously can't or IWC would be making their own movements.

I'm sure a great deal of the "heavily modified" part of the movement is simply ordering all the available upgrades from ETA.

 

[Sean779]

I'm sure a great deal of the "heavily modified" part of the movement is simply ordering all the available upgrades from ETA.

I wonder if sometimes "heavily modified" might mean simply a higher grade ETA--Elabore or Top :-s.

 

[Dr.Brian]

Didn't Walt Odets do a review of an IWC Chrono waaaay back in the day. I really think he did. I'll have to try to find it. I know that not all of his musings were archived, so we might be out of luck. I certainly didn't save anything from back then.
Edit- perhaps I was just thinking of his VJ7750 review? It's also possible that someone asked him to do one on their Flieger or Dopple and he never did? Long time ago.:roll:
Found it! It was Greg! I knew there was one.
http://www.timezone.com/library/comarticles/comarticles631681571896618891
Enjoy.

 

[mattjmcd]

Standing by for Part Two! Great post. :-!

 

[RDubya]

Excellent post, very informative. Thank you for enhancing my understanding of these movements and for raising awareness of the companies who use them and tweak them to rationalize their prices.

 

[Barry H]

I've told already and telling it now - your posts should be at least "Stick"ed, Dennis. That kind of information and efforts made must not be lost among senseless "what to buy" threads. ... Igor

+1. Love this kind of stuff. A joy to read a thread like this. More please...

 

[sdchew]

Great article! I can't seem to find Part 2. Has it been released already?

 

[Sodiac]

Here's a question from a novice: if the purpose of the Glucydur balance is to resist deformation from temperature change, would a ceramic balance wheel work? I would think ceramic is even more resistant to movement or deformation from temperature changes.

 

[ulackfocus]

Great article! I can't seem to find Part 2. Has it been released already?

https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/smoke-mirrors-part-2-eta-modifications-upgrades-459866.html

 

[ulackfocus]

Here's a question from a novice: if the purpose of the Glucydur balance is to resist deformation from temperature change, would a ceramic balance wheel work? I would think ceramic is even more resistant to movement or deformation from temperature changes.

Ceramic is probably too light of a material and may not be as easy to balance precisely. Let's see if lysander comes along and comments though.

 

[sdchew]

Here's a question from a novice: if the purpose of the Glucydur balance is to resist deformation from temperature change, would a ceramic balance wheel work? I would think ceramic is even more resistant to movement or deformation from temperature changes.

I would think ceramic has more mass than a metal balance wheel and thats not ideal. Not to mention, ceramics made that fine would be brittle and prone to cracking.

https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/smoke-mirrors-part-2-eta-modifications-upgrades-459866.html

Thank you sir!

 

[lysanderxiii]

Glucydur is a very hard metal, and not only has a low coefficient of thermal expansion, but also resists mechanical deformation better than nickel (the other common balance material.)

As far as ceramics, I think the problem with them is the manufacturing techniques have not been developed to the point where making them is cost effective....