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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
The TTK-1 Pobeda has always been a bit of a minor grail for me, as I always like that style of classic - even definitive - early model with Arabic numerals and hoping to get a full set: 1MWF, 2MWF, Chistopol, TTK-1, and ZIM, and am making headway.

Knowing how some examples have been butchered - or at least having been given the once-over by the good Dr F, I have kept my eyes out for TTK-1 parts. Vigilance paid off as I managed to acquire a job lot of parts movements, including a TTK-1 movement hidden among the more common ones. Certainly, condition is not perfect and can do with a big rebuild: here is a picture of it:

Fashion accessory Metal Pocket watch Antique Jewellery


Its serial number is 91581, dated third quarter of 1954. The hairspring is pretty mangled but I do not think it is a problem as I will get my watchmaker to change the balance wheel anyway, because the balance wheel is a non-studded one typical of a later movement.

As a TTK-1 watch is on its way with unknown innards (which explains the low price I paid!), I would not mind that much if it carries a non-original movement, as this one can very well be rebuilt, for restoring it to an authentic form.

Now I have spare Pobeda movements with good balances too, and have looked around to see what it should be like. There are two main types of studded movements: one with evenly spaced screw studs, another with the screw studs grouped into three's-and-one's. While phd, our resident Peterhofophile (is that a word?) feels that the three's-and-one's should be original, pictures of TTK-1 movements posted by fellow members also show some with the evenly spaced type too; perhaps variations did occur at St Pete at the time.

So, a lot depends on how that watch turns out to be; if it is all original with TTK-1 movement, then all is well, but if it needs this movement then I would like to figure out which type of balance wheel to put in. Perhaps authenticated TTK-1 examples, especially those from the same period, could provide a clue?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thanks schnurrp, I noticed that one too and it does have the three's-and-one's balance. It has gilt hour and minute hands but dark second hand, although anything could have happened even in the factory.

The late Dieter opined that movements marked TTK-1 only started appearing some time in 1954, prior to that, in TTK-1 Pobedas they were branded 1MWF, presumably shipped from Moscow as built-up units or ebauches. In the intervening years since his unfortunate passing, more information might have come to light, but not yet a TTK-1 branded movement dated 1953 or earlier, apparently. So, when my TTK-1 turns up, and if it has a 1MWF-branded movement dated prior to 1954 then I might be alright too.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 · (Edited)
schnurrp,

Now I have to wait for the postal services to get it here for the grand unveiling... in other words, the popping of the back! The TTK-1 logo on the movement was very hard to see in the seller's picture as it was not a very well lit group photograph; when I noticed the little circle did not have three lines striking through it was game on!

Yes, it was Dieter Brunow indeed: he posted his messages here under the username "Raketa". It's most fortunate that his collection did not disperse, but was integrated into the Mark Gordon collection for all to see.

I had another look at the movement picture you posted; I could be imagining things but do the Geneva stripes on the bridges look a little bit out of alignment?

Vaurien,

Thank you for posting your picture; it sure has that three's-and-one's balance wheel. It seems the serial numbers were all over the place, I am making a list of known TTK-1 movements noting the date and serial number, and it does not seem like they bear any obvious correlation.

Both my sister and brother-in-law collect watches, and they are into much more costly ones, but they thought my Pobedas are very high-end watches! I like them, they are perfectly formed, tough and plucky, a bit like this little fellow here...

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Hi, Seele --

I have 6 pieces in all with a TTK-1 signed movement including a solid gold piece. One of them was, indeed, from Dieter's collection.

Take a look at numbers: 0293, 0369, 0472, 0699, 0987, 1325.

Hope this helps.
-- Mark
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Thanks Mark for the lead! Adding other documented examples to the list, it does not give a definite pattern showing if there was a switch from uniformly spaced studs to three's-and-one's - or the other way round - if such a change actually happened. The extensive parts interchangeability can be a bit troublesome, as we all know quite well...
 

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I had another look at the movement picture you posted; I could be imagining things but do the Geneva stripes on the bridges look a little bit out of alignment?
Yes, it looks like the balance cock does not line up with winding bridge! A replacement balance? Other two bridges look okay.

Wait, I was looking at Vaurien's. The one I posted looks "okay".
 

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Regarding dates, I just checked and my TTK-1's are dated 54, 55 or 56. I don't remember seeing a 53.
 

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I think we'd need a statistically valid sample. If production started in December 1953...

Regarding serial numbers, I've never found any rhyme or reason to them, on any Petrodvoretz movement. Indeed, for more recent movements, the number of digits is surely not enough to cover the full production run. I asked Jaques von Polier about this (and about caseback numbers), and he said that there wasn't really a system. Oddly, I have two movements with identical numbers (though one is a 2603, and the other is a 2609A).
P
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
phd,

That is the tough part when dealing with something which are harder to difficult to find nowadays; the sample size is not large enough to make enough sense.

Serial number can also be a bit of a red herring too. My other area of study into Eastern European products show that, at best, a manufacturer assigned a block of serial numbers to a batch of products of the same type. In that sense, your replicated serial numbers is an indication that the same block of numbers were assigned to two batches of different products.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 · (Edited)
Finally the TTK-1 arrived from Europe and it's in very fine condition, apart from a thicker replacement crystal which, of course, will be replaced by a more appropriate one.

The dial is the more common version with the "Zavod TTK-1" at the bottom of the dial being bigger, without the number "6" at the bottom.

More interesting is the movement: a 1MWF-built one dated 2-54! This is a spanner in the works: as the earliest TTK-1 movement I am aware of is dated 2-54 (Mark's 0472), if we cannot find a TTK-1 movement dated 1-54 or before, then it is plausible that this movement is original to the watch after all, making my 3-54 TTK-1 movement superfluous for now.

If the TTK-1-marked movement came out in the second quarter of 1954, then there might be an overlap period at that time where both 1MWF and TTK-1 movements, dated 2-54, were fitted to TTK-1 watches. However, I am just speculating without the availability of solid evidence indicating either way: for now I am treating this watch as original - except for the crystal - unless proven otherwise. But then, if my TTK-1 movement is dated 2-54 then I would not be too worried about getting it fixed up and installed into this watch!

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Some parameters for dating can be found in the piece illustrated in 1450 on my site. Its not a watch, but an aluminum commemorative medallion issued for the 250th anniversary of the Petrodworzowy factory. It reads (translated into English, of course):

(Front)
Petrodworzowy Watch Factory
250 years

(Back)
Lapidary Factory R-KA 1721-1932
Factory TTK-1 1932-1954
Chasovoi 3-A 1954-1971

Seems the name TTK-1 was abandoned after 1954.

-- Mark
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Thanks Mark; a nice chunk of metal indeed!

If the TTK-1 company name was discontinued in 1954, then at first sight, TTK-1 Pobedas with later movements from 1-55 onwards, would just be using up the existing stock. However, it would be odd to think that, if the firm stopped using bought-in movements from 1MWF - let's assume it's 2-54 for our hypothesis - then it would be strange for them to make TTK-1 movements in the first place, let alone carrying on making them for at least two years, as phd recorded those made in 1956. In other words, based on known data, for at least two years, the firm made Pobedas signed TTK-1, using movements marked TTK-1, even though they were not trading under that name; odd!

The question remains: when was the crossover period when they made the transition from using 1MWF-built movements to using TTK-1 movements? My hypothesis is during the second quarter of 1954, thus the possibility that my example is original. Tricky situation indeed!
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Small update here:

The seller replied to my enquiry: he asked the original owner of the watch who bought it new, who said that the watch was totally original as bought except for the replacement crystal. There is nothing to prove it is wrong, so it is an indication that the second quarter of 1954 was indeed the crossover point, where the last of the 1MWF movements, and the first of the TTK-1 movements were used.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
My search for further TTK-1 information came up with a post by member Abbazz at another forum, who has an example with TTK-1 movement signed 3-50... that sure changed things if it's all correct.

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According to some sources TTK-1 produced Pobeda watches since 1949, but even the later ones are hard to get. This one looks original because of the corresponding finish and this ugly, but probably old scratch, and I think it might be a correct 1950 TTK-1 movement, even though bridges are easy to replace with 1MChZ parts. Anyway I'd love to have one I'v got to admit...
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
pmwas,

The 1949 date for St Pete's start in watch manufacture has indeed been quoted many times, and there's no reason to doubt it. There are also indications that at the early years, movements by 1MWF were used, although it has never been clear if they were received by St Pete as built-up movements or ebauches, or just loose parts. If the bridges were indeed made at St Pete then it would have been marked with the TTK-1 logo, and it would also be reasonable to think that they were assembled there: it just would not make any sense if St Pete had the ability to make components but unable to assemble them.

Apart from the old scratch, the surface finishing and the matched striping on the bridges suggest Abbazz's movement is original, as in a real TTK-1 produced at the third quarter of 1950. Knowing how the industries in the Soviet Union recovered and progressed at an astonishing pace after the war, it would be entirely possible that the production of movement parts and complete movements at St Pete was in full swing as early as 1950, as indicated by the existence of this example by Abbazz.

If that is indeed the case, then the authenticity of my 1MWF-powered example can then be again put into doubt; at the time St Pete would have been able to make all the movements it needed and all branded TTK-1 anyway, the need for obtaining movements from 1MWF as late as 1954 would be somewhat less plausible.

This is of course navel-gazing in a way, and yet I feel it is interesting - perhaps even important - to learn about the first years of watch production at a most respected company.
 
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