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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
It is said that Stalin personally approved the design of the Pobeda to celebrate the victory in the Great Patriotic War. I have never seen any evidence of this, but it's a good story nevereless and quite plausible. But there are billions of Pobedas, so which design would it be? The Pobeda watches were first made at the Penza factory in 1946, but since they couldn't keep up with demand, the production were later spawned to other factories as well. But if the watch story about Stalin is true, then it must refer to the first watches made at Penza in the first year of production.

I have recently acquired a watch that matches that specific configuration; a Penza made Pobeda from the fourth quarter of 1946 in silver case. I'd like to think that this is the design referred to in that story. It shows its age, but I don't mind. It just adds character and a sense of history.







 

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Yey! Congratulations, you just got one of this most thought after Soviet watches! This is my favorite configuration for Pobeda!
 

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Is that movement in action in that shot? It appears it is ticking!

Great watch. Enjoy it in goo health!


Glen
 

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Firstly - marvelous one! And has the original balance cock! Great catch!
Now back to the shape I have to make a slight correction - actually both Red Twelves were made since 1-46 in both PChZ and 1MChZ (there are known 1-46 1MChZ watches). So there were either the cusion shaped silver ones and the ordinary chrome plated, small Pobedas as well. Anyway - finding one of ours is not that easy :) Here's mine saying hello:
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Thank you all for the nice comments. Glen, the movement was indeed running. The case back comes off without tools, so it was en easy operation for the photos. AID, when will we see your sister watch? And pmwatch, I did glance with envy at yours before I finally nailed my own.

The seller made a big fuzz about the jewels being white, as apposed to red ruby jewels. He claimed it was made with German equipment from Glasütte. And it has a gold anchor wheel. Not sure what to make out of it. I thought the Pobeda movement had its roots in France?
 

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Well - the jewels are paler than in later Pobeda indeed. The French roots - yes. it is a Lip movement, but heavily modified, probably to use the T18 gear train already made in USSR for Zvezda watches. The arbors and staffs are different, but the gears seem the same, and so does the balance wheel, but I might be wrong - it's just my theory on why the K26 is so different from the Lip's precedessor. The Glashutte machinery... Yes, Ive once read the K26 is a Glashutte copy, but... I don't think so :) It's also true the Russians did 'borrow' some Glashutte machines no doubt, but they were probably used to rebuild the Moscow plants rather than moved to Penza, where all the machines had already been present for some time. Again - just my thoughts. I have heard many different things about the early K26s, even that some were Swiss made ;). Now we have a gold escape wheel (brass of course!) and Glashutte machines, and only the last one might actually be partly true.
 

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Well - the jewels are paler than in later Pobeda indeed. The French roots - yes. it is a Lip movement, but heavily modified, probably to use the T18 gear train already made in USSR for Zvezda watches. The arbors and staffs are different, but the gears seem the same, and so does the balance wheel, but I might be wrong - it's just my theory on why the K26 is so different from the Lip's precedessor. The Glashutte machinery... Yes, Ive once read the K26 is a Glashutte copy, but... I don't think so :) It's also true the Russians did 'borrow' some Glashutte machines no doubt, but they were probably used to rebuild the Moscow plants rather than moved to Penza, where all the machines had already been present for some time. Again - just my thoughts. I have heard many different things about the early K26s, even that some were Swiss made ;). Now we have a gold escape wheel (brass of course!) and Glashutte machines, and only the last one might actually be partly true.
I agree that Glashutte has nothing to do with the Pobeda design.

I think your theory about designing around existing Zvezda parts has some merit especially if there was some Lip expertise involved. This would explain both the superficial similarity of the Pobeda to the Lip R26 and also the fundamental differences.
 

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.... actually both Red Twelves were made since 1-46 in both PChZ and 1MChZ (there are known 1-46 1MChZ watches)....
PMWAS -Actually to my limited knowledge (which includes an extensive research on the subject) there were no 1-46 1MChZ watches. Perhaps you meant 4-46? If you know for a fact of one from the 1Q, or even better - have a picture, please let me know. I would really appreciate it. Thanks.

LUCIDOR - as embarrassing as it sounds I don't have a camera, other then my phone's one. And that one takes bad pictures. I'll get an image of mine soon. On the separate subject those jewels are not white, I am pretty sure. I think they were red, but turned into "unspecified color" from time and oil. :) As far as anchor wheel, I assume you refer to an escapement, it is suppose to be yellow for very early production. In general the movement looks all original on your watch. And lastly, as Chascomm and Pmwas rightfully said: Pobeda derives from Lip, although I have my own theory about actual caliber. I think it's R25, which was also used in Prim watches. But it's a long story. If you search the forum, you'll find my research on the subject which includes many guesses :)

P.S. One thing that may spoil this post a little is that I am pretty sure that the dial is not original, although this is a very early genuine Pobeda dial...
 

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Check out the seconds dial on Pmwas Pobeda's picture. It looks a bit different. Also the font of the numbers is a little different too. Pmwas has the original Penza dial, yours looks like a very early (late 40's?) dial from 1st Factory. On my Pobeda dial was in "less than stellar" condition, so I got a replacement like yours. I thought they were the same, until it arrived and I noticed subtle differences. They are hard to notice...
 

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AID, well... I believe there was one someone showing a 1-46 1MChZ Pobaeda. Maybe it is my memory playing tricks on me, but I'm quite sure someone has shown one that I thought it couldn';t have been any earlier at all. maybe it was in fact Penza, but I have a strong feeling it was a 1MChZ. But maybe I'm actually wrong. 4-46 were around for sure, so 1mChZ started making them in 1946 anyway.
Back to the dial... I saw that too, but it doesn't seem THAT easy. I've once had a 3-46 Pobeda from Penza with the sub-dial looking like this.
The watch hasgone to a very fine collection long ago, but I've managed to dig out a picture from my archives :)
I've been thinking long about it, but by the quality/color/structure... how else can I say it... I think this dial was original to the watch. So it seems Penza made two different dials at the time. Or maybe again - I'm wrong...
 

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PMWAS - are you sure the watch on the picture is from Penza? It looks like a very early 1MChZ example. I don't know. No one probably knows for sure at this point, but I saw 5 or 6 Penza made watches and they all had silver case, like yours and Lucidor's and all, except Lucidor's had a dial like on yours.
 

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Yes, it was definitely a 3-46 Penza watch, no doubt. Also, Penza did make these as well, not just the silver ones. I'm not sure about the dials, but this - I know for sure :)
 

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Yes, it was definitely a 3-46 Penza watch, no doubt. Also, Penza did make these as well, not just the silver ones. I'm not sure about the dials, but this - I know for sure :)
How do you know for sure this is a complete genuine Penza watch? Have you seen more watches like this one? Please understand I am not trying to doubt your statement. I am just trying to collect any possible documentation on the subject.

As I said before: I did an extensive research on early Pobeda watches (from before 50's) and while I collected a lot of "educated guesses" I found no proofs or witnessed cases of anything. So, if you have any proof that this is in fact a Penza watch, not a Penza movement with 1st Factory case and dial, I am very interested to see it. Just for my research, not because I am trying to insinuate anything. Thanks.
 

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Fulfilling my promise to Lucidor and posting a few pictures of my Pobeda. Took them with my phone, so excuse the quality. I did all I could in Photoshop to fix it :)))

1-46 Penza made Pobeda. Almost all original. Most likely "pre-production model" as there is no serial number on the movement. Replacement dial (original is in the picture), also replacement escapement wheel with a newer, silver one, but original yellow pallet fork. In my restoration efforts I always try to stay as original as possible, but keep in mind a functionality. This Pobeda runs strong with about 260'-280' amplitude when fully wound, and about 120 seconds positional error, which cancels out when on the wrist. I actually worn this watch as a daily wearer for a few weeks after I restored it. It was giving me about 20-30 seconds per day error, which IMHO is excellent for the watch of this vintage...

View attachment 989092

View attachment 989093
 

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Side note: when I first received this watch it was ticking, but not keeping time at all. Balance wheel would swing, but with a low amplitude and in general the watch was only good as a collectable piece in the box. As I was working on the movement I have noticed that original yellow escapement wheel is bent. I tried to straighten it, but the wheel fall apart under my tweezers. When I attempted to install a replacement, silver colored wheel from a donor movement made in 50's or 60's it would not fit! Actually it would fit, but then it would not move, because it was sitting too tight in the jewel setting! So, I had to push the upper jewel in the bridge a little for the replacement wheel to start working properly. This experience made me think, that these very early Pobeda movements were fitted by hand and went through a manual final adjustments, rather than a production type style...

I though it would be an interesting story.
 

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Yes, the staffs were a touch shorter in 1946, I've noticed that one too. back to the silver Pobeda you've shown, I'd have kept the original dial. It's not that bad and I believe it would be nicer that way. But that's my opinion - I'm obsessed with keeping parts original sometimes :)
 

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Yes, the staffs were a touch shorter in 1946, I've noticed that one too. back to the silver Pobeda you've shown, I'd have kept the original dial. It's not that bad and I believe it would be nicer that way. But that's my opinion - I'm obsessed with keeping parts original sometimes :)

I tend to agree with you. As I become older and more mature as a collector, I am getting more obsessed with keeping all parts original too. But about three years ago, when I got this watch I wasn't as particular. I knew even then I should save original dial. But I wanted this watch to look as close to new as possible, so I can wear it and brag about it :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Thank you AID for showing your Pobeda, I have been curious ever since you first announced it a few years ago. And I really enjoyed the knowledgeable discussion between you and pmwas on the details about the first Pobedas. But we didn't reached concensus whether the dial on my watch is original or not. Maybe we can conclude that is plausible, but not confirmed?
 
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