WatchUSeek Watch Forums banner

1 - 17 of 17 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
308 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I would like to understand the principles of overwind protection & if Stowa automatic watches incorporate this function. I believe there is a slip clutch of some sort in some automatics to prevent wear & stress on the parts affected. With many manual wind watches, the crown will prevent overwind but the rotor continues to rock with an automatic after full wind.
Thanks for any understanding you can provide.
B.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
808 Posts
For automatic movements, the mainspring is designed in a way that it can't be overwound thanks to a slipping clutch device.
 

·
Moderator Emeritus
Joined
·
54,687 Posts
My standard answer:

You haven't done a search here on WUS, have you !?! The clutch thing has been discussed ad nausem and of course is valid for all automatic movements Stowa is currently using.

for your convenience:

Automatic watches are equipped with a slipping clutch to prevent overwinding. This little device typically is attached to the mainspring, preventing its over-winding and prolonging the life of the watch by minimizing the chances of the mainspring breaking. You will find an excellent "How does the clutch work" at Watch Movements Wiki.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,633 Posts
Thank you.
B.
Thanks for your question and the responses from Fikk and Mike. |>
Recently, very early in the morning, I was winding up my Stowa Flieger 40mm Auto thinking that I had my 41mm Flieger (6498).
After winding and winding away, I thought something is not right. Looked down at my 40mm Auto and started to worry that I stressed the movement too much.
Your post and replies put me at ease.
Thanks. :)
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,434 Posts
Thanks for your question and the responses from Fikk and Mike. |>
Recently, very early in the morning, I was winding up my Stowa Flieger 40mm Auto thinking that I had my 41mm Flieger (6498).
After winding and winding away, I thought something is not right. Looked down at my 40mm Auto and started to worry that I stressed the movement too much.
Your post and replies put me at ease.
Thanks. :)
Keep in mind that just because the watch has a clutch to protect the mainspring and in this sense cannot be overwound, this does not mean it's a good practice to regularly handwind an automatic with an ETA movement. The handwinding parts in these mass-produced automatic calibers are not designed with such regular use in mind and can wear out faster with crown winding. If you do a search here or elsewhere, you will see plenty of talk about this. Best to give it just a few crown turns to get the movement going, then strap it on and let the rotor do its job.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
308 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 · (Edited)
Keep in mind that just because the watch has a clutch to protect the mainspring and in this sense cannot be overwound, this does not mean it's a good practice to regularly handwind an automatic with an ETA movement. The handwinding parts in these mass-produced automatic calibers are not designed with such regular use in mind and can wear out faster with crown winding. If you do a search here or elsewhere, you will see plenty of talk about this. Best to give it just a few crown turns to get the movement going, then strap it on and let the rotor do its job.
Thanks for that. I have started reading what I can find about winding automatics & one interesting point I came across mentioned that if you ALWAYS only let the rotor wind the watch the mainspring may never be near full power (eg: tight). It was suggested that hand winding to full power once in awhile would keep the daily rotor winding of the mainspring closer to ideal, ensuring optimum performance. Keeping in mind the fragility of the hand winding components of ETA auto movements as mentioned in these forums, I am interested to hear from you Stowa owners about this approach of keeping the mainspring fully hand wound periodically. My limited understanding of the ETA 2824-2 makes it difficult for me. Understanding goes a long way to maintaining a healthy Flieger :-!
B.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
808 Posts
If you have a bit of activity you won't have to manually wind the watch.
Your daily activity should be enough to cover the period when you sleep and allow you to simply take and wear your watch the following day.
 

·
Moderator Emeritus
Joined
·
54,687 Posts
When not worn for some time give it some turns (15-20), set the date and time and wear it. Your activity during the day will be sufficient to keep the mainspring wound till next day (assuming you do not sleep all day long).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
308 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Thanks guys. I think that I can take from your responses that it is best to be prudent with hand winding. I will heed your advice & only hand wind to re-start if required. I'm confident that the Flieger's rotor bearing will outperform the hand wind components. I have ultimate respect for this watch & only wish to treat it accordingly.
B.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
478 Posts
Keep in mind that just because the watch has a clutch to protect the mainspring and in this sense cannot be overwound, this does not mean it's a good practice to regularly handwind an automatic with an ETA movement. The handwinding parts in these mass-produced automatic calibers are not designed with such regular use in mind and can wear out faster with crown winding. If you do a search here or elsewhere, you will see plenty of talk about this. Best to give it just a few crown turns to get the movement going, then strap it on and let the rotor do its job.
My understanding is that this is a specific weakness of the ETA 2824. The valjoux 7750 can be hand wound with impunity since it was a more solid winding stems. Seiko, Rolex and other companies also seem to have no issues for handwind.

Sent from my ZTE A2017U using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
152 Posts
I've been thinking about getting a Sinn Chronograph which would be the only automatic watch for me. I've been a bit worried about the winding bit, but the 7750 comment makes me feel a little bit at ease (if SW500 is more or less same as 7750).

Sent from my LG-D858HK using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
308 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 · (Edited)
My understanding is that this is a specific weakness of the ETA 2824. The valjoux 7750 can be hand wound with impunity since it was a more solid winding stems. Seiko, Rolex and other companies also seem to have no issues for handwind.

Sent from my ZTE A2017U using Tapatalk
Thanks mr_raider. This inherent characteristic of the ETA 2824 that you mention has a VALID reason I have discovered in my research. In all the searching I have done so far, I have come up with the following, if you allow me to paraphrase other's explanations.
> Apparently, automatics are more prone to wear of the manual winding parts due to having to wind the mainspring and ALSO fight the auto winding mechanism which puts extra stress on the stem & winding gears.
> The ETA 2824 is a ETA 2804 + an autowinding bridge & it doesn't like hand winding because of the auto module. This module is geared pretty high so the MINIMAL torque provided by the rotor will wind the mainspring. The autowinding gears turn backwards when hand winding & the reverser wheels spin fast & the pawls in the reversers suffer the most.> possibly cause the reverser wheel to drag the rotor enough to make it spin.> possibly cause pivots damage on the auto module ( esp. the ratchet wheel driving wheel which is not jewelled on the bottom.) (*REMEMBER > this is over a long period of such activity.)
> This is NOT a flaw. When a geared up gear-train turns backward it increases the gear loading. Simple as that. Someone said that ETA's system was chosen to balance winding efficiency with production cost with adequate durability & that there is no reason to wind an automatic daily, or really with any frequency, so there is not really a flaw & that ...the manual winding gears in many autos are of necessity made smaller and thinner because the auto winding system adds significant height to the movement and everything has to fit inside the limited space.

Like Mike & dhtjr have said, it's ok to wind 'er up when needed. (It's not made of plastic). It's just that we have to be practical (& sensible). I believe that we sometimes create concern where none is warranted. The hand winding is a BACKUP on an automatic watch, not a crucial determining factor. Stowa has given us a magnificent, affordable Flieger of high quality that I will not part with. Forgive me if I want to ensure optimum care via understanding.
That's all this is.
I personally think that the Stowa Flieger 2824-2 is exemplary in it's design.
B.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
308 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
As a follow up I should mention that there is a 10 min. video on youtube that explains that the reason for the ratchet wheel causing the rotor to spin during hand winding (IF it does), is due to a lack of proper lubrication on the mounting post of said wheel. He removes the auto module & shows that it was rectified by lubrication. With a display back, one can actually see if the rotor spins during hand wind. That's a tremendous load for the teeth on the wheel. Perhaps someone here with more insight than myself could verify the logic & worthiness of this treatment. This SOUNDS like it could conceivably be quite worth the effort.
Being new to this forum, I'm not sure that a link to that video is appropriate here.
B.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
152 Posts
As a follow up I should mention that there is a 10 min. video on youtube that explains that the reason for the ratchet wheel causing the rotor to spin during hand winding (IF it does), is due to a lack of proper lubrication on the mounting post of said wheel. He removes the auto module & shows that it was rectified by lubrication. With a display back, one can actually see if the rotor spins during hand wind. That's a tremendous load for the teeth on the wheel. Perhaps someone here with more insight than myself could verify the logic & worthiness of this treatment. This SOUNDS like it could conceivably be quite worth the effort.
Being new to this forum, I'm not sure that a link to that video is appropriate here.
B.
Can you provide a link to the video? I'd like to take a look.

Sent from my LG-D858HK using Tapatalk
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,936 Posts
Thanks mr_raider. This inherent characteristic of the ETA 2824 that you mention has a VALID reason I have discovered in my research. In all the searching I have done so far, I have come up with the following, if you allow me to paraphrase other's explanations.
> Apparently, automatics are more prone to wear of the manual winding parts due to having to wind the mainspring and ALSO fight the auto winding mechanism which puts extra stress on the stem & winding gears.
> The ETA 2824 is a ETA 2804 + an autowinding bridge & it doesn't like hand winding because of the auto module. This module is geared pretty high so the MINIMAL torque provided by the rotor will wind the mainspring. The autowinding gears turn backwards when hand winding & the reverser wheels spin fast & the pawls in the reversers suffer the most.> possibly cause the reverser wheel to drag the rotor enough to make it spin.> possibly cause pivots damage on the auto module ( esp. the ratchet wheel driving wheel which is not jewelled on the bottom.) (*REMEMBER > this is over a long period of such activity.)
> This is NOT a flaw. When a geared up gear-train turns backward it increases the gear loading. Simple as that. Someone said that ETA's system was chosen to balance winding efficiency with production cost with adequate durability & that there is no reason to wind an automatic daily, or really with any frequency, so there is not really a flaw & that ...the manual winding gears in many autos are of necessity made smaller and thinner because the auto winding system adds significant height to the movement and everything has to fit inside the limited space.

Like Mike & dhtjr have said, it's ok to wind 'er up when needed. (It's not made of plastic). It's just that we have to be practical (& sensible). I believe that we sometimes create concern where none is warranted. The hand winding is a BACKUP on an automatic watch, not a crucial determining factor. Stowa has given us a magnificent, affordable Flieger of high quality that I will not part with. Forgive me if I want to ensure optimum care via understanding.
That's all this is.
I personally think that the Stowa Flieger 2824-2 is exemplary in it's design.
B.
I believe some of the winding issues of the 2824 stem from the choice of materials used.

FWIW, I have a 2836, 2892 and A10 - I never give them more than a few turns to get started. I find the ETAs both wind up fully after just a few hours of wear. The A10 seems to take close to the day. I satisfy my twisting (twisted?) urges with my five handwinders.

There are many threads on this issue, here's one, see Post 14 in particular, it references a few other good threads.

https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/manual-winding-automatic-movement-3884114-2.html


 

·
Registered
Joined
·
308 Posts
Discussion Starter · #17 ·
I believe some of the winding issues of the 2824 stem from the choice of materials used.

FWIW, I have a 2836, 2892 and A10 - I never give them more than a few turns to get started. I find the ETAs both wind up fully after just a few hours of wear. The A10 seems to take close to the day. I satisfy my twisting (twisted?) urges with my five handwinders.

There are many threads on this issue, here's one, see Post 14 in particular, it references a few other good threads.

https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/manual-winding-automatic-movement-3884114-2.html

Thanks for the post & the LOADED link !!! Talk about a taking a winding road into a dark hole! ;-)... (But it was worth every step.) Had no idea what I was starting AGAIN here.

I can't help but wonder though why nobody is making any ungraded aftermarket parts for this movement... considering that ETA doesn't supply independent watchmakers with replacement parts.


My standard answer:

You haven't done a search here on WUS, have you !?! .....(this) thing has been discussed ad nauseam...........
SO sorry Mike.... o|
 
1 - 17 of 17 Posts
Top