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Sure, with self-awareness, it fits. It's just... How many of us are that self-aware? Any how many of us are consistently self-aware? Why did I spend two hours yesterday browsing cheap Swatches?
I think WPAC ideally helps create that kind of self-awareness of the ridiculousness of trying to find "completion" by stuffing that hole with purchased baubles. But we're probably the outliers...
Thank you for you grail explanation. That’s quite a depth of knowledge!

I’ve attempted to bring up the self awareness analogy with WPAC before, just not very well. To me, if we have difficulty abstaining from searching for and buying more watches than we need the chance is we have that same issue in other parts of our lives. In other words, we can take this experience and apply it elsewhere.


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... No one wants to talk Chaucer in the original Middle English anymore... I do worry about what this world is coming to

...
Whan that Aprille with his shoures soote,
The droghte of Marche hath perced to the roote...

I love to hear the Canterbury Tales in the original Middle English!

I'm no medievalist, but my Master's program focused on Early Modern England (Shakespeare in particular). However, I dabbled in Chaucer, Dante, and Petrarch as well.

I really appreciated your grail summary. One of the things I noticed about Chaucer's Tales is how Arthurian legend and Christianity were really intertwined in his writing.
 

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The search for The Grail is analogous to any number of other quests, whether something like Campbell's Hero's Journey, or the search for the Philosopher's Stone in the practice of alchemy. Largely, much mysticism had to be concealed for fear of religious prosecution, so alchemical texts, while ostensibly demonstrating the chemistry of stuff like turning lead to gold, and producing a philosopher's stone, is really more about the internal process toward what we might call enlightenment, or self-actualization.

Too often, we get sidetracked - certainly Siddhartha did... - by the ways and needs of the mundane world, and the pursuit of material realizations, which turn out to be distractions, illusory, and ultimately stand in the way of achieving The Grail.

The secret of The Grail is this: you already have it. You just have to recognize it.

Collecting watches, the pursuit of that Perfect Watch, The One, The Grail is more an internal quest than an actual physical pursuit. More about being happy with what you have, than hoping to accumulate more watches in pursuit of The Grail.

And WPAC is The Way...
And this is the thing about the Grail itself. It's a cipher. In the end, it can stand in for anything. And in the alchemical process of watch brands making watches, marketing watches, and watch forums endlessly discussing watches, a product of capitalist production gets transmuted into the place of the goal of that internal process.

Yes, the Grail is within you. As the classical philosophers like Plato through Boethius as well as other philosophers like Siddharta noted, anything that can be taken away from you cannot be the source of happiness/contentment. Because then you will be unhappy without it. And I'm sure there are dozens of threads here talking about disappointment with the "grail watch." I'm sure there are even more folks around these parts who have been able to finally purchase a grail watch and then got bored with it, disappointed with it, and moved on. Always searching, always on the move. But the direction is not outward, rather inward.

It's about cultivating one's life and personality so that some object, or fame, or wealth, or whatever are as irrelevant as the clouds passing by. It's not necessarily about becoming an ascetic, although I do often admire Diogenes. It's about embracing the classical virtue of "prudentia," or making the right decisions at the right time and place. This may be buying an expensive watch, or it may be buying a cheap watch, or it may be buying no watch whatsoever.

I actually genuinely think my favourite film is "Monty Python and the Holy Grail". Closely followed by, or equal with "The life of Brian".

It's the only film I can watch over and over again, and still love it.
What's really curious is that Monty Python's Holy Grail is actually pretty darn accurate even while it satirizes the Arthurian cycle. Like, there are numerous diversions. The story just changes randomly, some stories just end, etc. It's what happens when you have a massive collection of literature written over about 1,000 years. My professor mentioned that Arthurian romance really is like the Borg. It just assimilated everything in its path. The German story of Tristan and Isolde ended up becoming part of the Arthurian cycle. But, then again, the folks in Monty Python all have/had higher degrees. So they knew what they were doing.

Whan that Aprille with his shoures soote,
The droghte of Marche hath perced to the roote...

I love to hear the Canterbury Tales in the original Middle English!

I'm no medievalist, but my Master's program focused on Early Modern England (Shakespeare in particular). However, I dabbled in Chaucer, Dante, and Petrarch as well.

I really appreciated your grail summary. One of the things I noticed about Chaucer's Tales is how Arthurian legend and Christianity were really intertwined in his writing.
One thing I love about Chaucer and Shakespeare too, is their crude humor. Education is really failing kids by making Shakespeare boring. There are soooooo many genital jokes. And what do teenagers love more than jokes like that? Nothing. It was such an eye-opener, looking at Shakespeare and Chaucer in higher education. Tell the D-jokes in school.

Chaucer is of course also great at absolutely skewering all of his characters. The most religious folks tell the dirtiest stories, and the simplest folks tell the most high and elevated stories of courtly life. But the story-tellers end up so full of themselves that the others in the party end up mocking them. I mean, it's like a medieval rap battle. There's a lot of ways we can make these classic works interesting.
 

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And this is the thing about the Grail itself. It's a cipher. In the end, it can stand in for anything. And in the alchemical process of watch brands making watches, marketing watches, and watch forums endlessly discussing watches, a product of capitalist production gets transmuted into the place of the goal of that internal process.

Yes, the Grail is within you. As the classical philosophers like Plato through Boethius as well as other philosophers like Siddharta noted, anything that can be taken away from you cannot be the source of happiness/contentment. Because then you will be unhappy without it. And I'm sure there are dozens of threads here talking about disappointment with the "grail watch." I'm sure there are even more folks around these parts who have been able to finally purchase a grail watch and then got bored with it, disappointed with it, and moved on. Always searching, always on the move. But the direction is not outward, rather inward.

It's about cultivating one's life and personality so that some object, or fame, or wealth, or whatever are as irrelevant as the clouds passing by. It's not necessarily about becoming an ascetic, although I do often admire Diogenes. It's about embracing the classical virtue of "prudentia," or making the right decisions at the right time and place. This may be buying an expensive watch, or it may be buying a cheap watch, or it may be buying no watch whatsoever.



What's really curious is that Monty Python's Holy Grail is actually pretty darn accurate even while it satirizes the Arthurian cycle. Like, there are numerous diversions. The story just changes randomly, some stories just end, etc. It's what happens when you have a massive collection of literature written over about 1,000 years. My professor mentioned that Arthurian romance really is like the Borg. It just assimilated everything in its path. The German story of Tristan and Isolde ended up becoming part of the Arthurian cycle. But, then again, the folks in Monty Python all have/had higher degrees. So they knew what they were doing.



One thing I love about Chaucer and Shakespeare too, is their crude humor. Education is really failing kids by making Shakespeare boring. There are soooooo many genital jokes. And what do teenagers love more than jokes like that? Nothing. It was such an eye-opener, looking at Shakespeare and Chaucer in higher education. Tell the D-jokes in school.

Chaucer is of course also great at absolutely skewering all of his characters. The most religious folks tell the dirtiest stories, and the simplest folks tell the most high and elevated stories of courtly life. But the story-tellers end up so full of themselves that the others in the party end up mocking them. I mean, it's like a medieval rap battle. There's a lot of ways we can make these classic works interesting.
Some what connected, but the BBCs "Horrible Histories" series, which my daughter loves, is an absolutely brilliant way of imparting history. Funny, slightly rude and historical accurate (as far as I know....). If I remember my dry history lessons there's a world of difference and if its fun you're likely to remember it more. Educators could take note.......
 

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So, here's a funny one for you all:

I got a TPU tropic strap from cheapest nato. I know TPU is pretty stiff, but I also knew the coffee mug trick: put the strap rolled up in a mug. Poor boiling water and let it sit for 5-10 min. Flush with cold water for 5 min. And it will now have the rounded shape of the mug.

Now first time I did that, it worked, but I found the result not sufficient. So I thought I'd try another time, but this time roll it up as tightly as I can with the keepers of the strap. See here the result 😂

15868896



I might have overdone it a little 😛😂 but nothing that can't be fixed 😇
 

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Agree with Weetabix that this is supposed to be fun. It’s a hobby, right? Not some Arthurian quest for the meaning of life. It’s natural to want to better yourself and to be curious and explore new things. So long as we keep our purchasing within limits (eg one in, one out), then all is good, eh? If not, then why are we all here?


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View attachment 15868896


I might have overdone it a little 😛😂 but nothing that can't be fixed 😇
A Valentine's day tropic strap ! :love:
Agree with Weetabix that this is supposed to be fun. It’s a hobby, right? Not some Arthurian quest for the meaning of life. It’s natural to want to better yourself and to be curious and explore new things. So long as we keep our purchasing within limits (eg one in, one out), then all is good, eh? If not, then why are we all here?
I think the important part is keeping control of life pleasures : if you lose it, you start requiring more and more exposure to those, to the point you require it regularly just to feel in a normal state. If you maintain control, by regulating the quantities or frequency of exposure, then issues don't arise, and you can ultimately enjoy it longer than the one who lost control and had to stop entirely.

That philosophy is more or less Epicurism, which long precedes medieval thinkers btw. We didn't invent the wheel. ;)
 

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You mean the seconds hands didn't aligned with all the markers ? I've noticed that all the Fieldforces with centered seconds have the same issue, but, while the day-date wheels seemed imperfectly aligned, I assumed it was mainly a Ronda 505 issue. But if the INOX is affected, it means that either my assumption is incomplete, either the problem is more general. 😐


Lots of wisdom inspirations here. Yet the quest, the search in itself is a fun process. Maybe that's why people set themselves unattainable grails. The problem being you might forget it is unattainable, and actually try to reach it to end the quest ; instead of realizing you yourself are in fact the key to the quest.

I was just browsing Youtube in order to check how aligned where the reviewed INOXs, and stumbled on this in the video's description :


I really enjoy watches and that's why I started this channel so I could review them regularly but my satisfaction is not found in owning or experiencing watches, no matter how many I may accumulate or how luxurious and expensive they may be . . .

Damn, not the kind of wisdom you'd expect at the corner of a google associated site, uh ? 😯

But then, it ended with a quote of Solomon in the Ecclesiaste, and an invitation to join into some kind of church.
Not only did the seconds hand not align with the markers, its length of travel for each beat seemed to vary as well- it'd be way past one marker for one beat, then just past the next one for the next, etc. It was awful. It may have just been a lemon movement though, as I've had Ronda quartz movements since then that were satisfactory.

Regardless of your position on religion there's a lot of wisdom in Ecclesiastes, I'd not recommend dismissing it out of hand ;)
 

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Yes, the Grail is within you. As the classical philosophers like Plato through Boethius as well as other philosophers like Siddharta noted, anything that can be taken away from you cannot be the source of happiness/contentment. Because then you will be unhappy without it.
(raises hand) But if taking it away makes you unhappy, wasn't it the source of the happiness?

Should I read that as, "one must not allow anything that can be taken away to be regarded as a true source of happiness"?

It's about cultivating one's life and personality so that some object, or fame, or wealth, or whatever are as irrelevant as the clouds passing by. It's not necessarily about becoming an ascetic, although I do often admire Diogenes. It's about embracing the classical virtue of "prudentia," or making the right decisions at the right time and place. This may be buying an expensive watch, or it may be buying a cheap watch, or it may be buying no watch whatsoever.
Sounds a bit like Marcus Aurelius?

One thing I love about Chaucer and Shakespeare too, is their crude humor. Education is really failing kids by making Shakespeare boring. There are soooooo many genital jokes. And what do teenagers love more than jokes like that? Nothing. It was such an eye-opener, looking at Shakespeare and Chaucer in higher education. Tell the D-jokes in school.

Chaucer is of course also great at absolutely skewering all of his characters. The most religious folks tell the dirtiest stories, and the simplest folks tell the most high and elevated stories of courtly life. But the story-tellers end up so full of themselves that the others in the party end up mocking them. I mean, it's like a medieval rap battle. There's a lot of ways we can make these classic works interesting.
Any recommendations on some primers on reading Shakespeare or Chaucer? I've enjoyed quite a bit of Shakespeare, but I imagine that enjoyment could be deeper. Haven't read Chaucer to speak of.
 

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Agree with Weetabix that this is supposed to be fun. It’s a hobby, right? Not some Arthurian quest for the meaning of life. It’s natural to want to better yourself and to be curious and explore new things. So long as we keep our purchasing within limits (eg one in, one out), then all is good, eh? If not, then why are we all here?
We need a tongue in cheek emoji. I was riffing off the discussion, while actually agreeing that way too many people take this whole hobby much too seriously.

@Zzyzx mentioned the internal/external. I think an obsession with this whole external fulfillment thing speaks to an unrealized internal emptiness that the obsessed are trying to fill. Too many philosophers to count have cautioned us against that for millennia. But people are a hard-headed lot who mostly learn (if at all) by personal experience.
 

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So, here's a funny one for you all:

I got a TPU tropic strap from cheapest nato. I know TPU is pretty stiff, but I also knew the coffee mug trick: put the strap rolled up in a mug. Poor boiling water and let it sit for 5-10 min. Flush with cold water for 5 min. And it will now have the rounded shape of the mug.

Now first time I did that, it worked, but I found the result not sufficient. So I thought I'd try another time, but this time roll it up as tightly as I can with the keepers of the strap. See here the result 😂

View attachment 15868896


I might have overdone it a little 😛😂 but nothing that can't be fixed 😇
Salvageable ??
It's a little difficulty to tell, but they look like one of those polystyrene cups they attach to the outside of deep sea subs. They come back up to the surface one tenth they size and as dense as neutron stars ... 😉
 

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All this discussion of philosophy makes me want to do my... Pazzaaam... Super Philosopher is here....

But who am I kidding, I don't know any better than any one else. Isn't it something like: everything in moderation, eat and live carefully, and be nice to one and another ??


But if anybody wants to discuss Wittgenstein's Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus and how that morphed to the Game Theory of Language.... I'm here 😉
 

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All this discussion of philosophy makes me want to do my... Pazzaaam... Super Philosopher is here....

But who am I kidding, I don't know any better than any one else. Isn't it something like: everything in moderation, eat and live carefully, and be nice to one and another ??


But if anybody wants to discuss Wittgenstein's Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus and how that morphed to the Game Theory of Language.... I'm here 😉
As a mechanical engineer I've given up following the philosophic debate (when it started..... o_O). I'll start paying attention when you lot stop blethering on about some dead guys and their books..... :ROFLMAO:
 

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I don't claim to understand game theory, but I enjoy reading about it and speculating. So... begin the discussion!
Von Neumann and his Game Theory, especially as applied to nuclear war and MAD - mutually assured destruction, is absolutely fascinating. I don't know zip about it either..
But unfortunately it's nothing to do with Wittgenstein's Language Games Theory.... 🤔🤪
IMG_20210507_165238.jpg
IMG_20210507_165158.jpg
 

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Von Neumann and his Game Theory, especially as applied to nuclear war and MAD - mutually assured destruction, is absolutely fascinating. I don't know zip about it either..
But unfortunately it's nothing to do with Wittgenstein's Language Games Theory.... 🤔🤪
(steps out to google "Wittgenstein's Language Games Theory") It sounds as if he's basically saying that any sentence only has specific meaning within the context it's spoken. That sounds so unarguable that it would be difficult to have an interesting conversation about.

Where do you stand on prescriptivist vs. descriptivist grammar, word use, and word definition? I'm about 95% presciptivist and about 5% descriptivist. Probably the engineer in me. I think clear rules for language make communication more effective. When word meaning is fluid or when grammar is abused, I don't believe meaningful communication happens. On the other hand, I do understand that language evolves or we'd all still speak like Chaucer. (see what I did there?)
 

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Salvageable ??
It's a little difficulty to tell, but they look like one of those polystyrene cups they attach to the outside of deep sea subs. They come back up to the surface one tenth they size and as dense as neutron stars ... 😉
Surely salvageable, just need to repeat the process and force it in proper shape.

No clue WTH you're talking about with polystyrene cups, submarines and neutron stars though lol 🤨🤔
 

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(steps out to google "Wittgenstein's Language Games Theory") It sounds as if he's basically saying that any sentence only has specific meaning within the context it's spoken. That sounds so unarguable that it would be difficult to have an interesting conversation about.

Where do you stand on prescriptivist vs. descriptivist grammar, word use, and word definition? I'm about 95% presciptivist and about 5% descriptivist. Probably the engineer in me. I think clear rules for language make communication more effective. When word meaning is fluid or when grammar is abused, I don't believe meaningful communication happens. On the other hand, I do understand that language evolves or we'd all still speak like Chaucer. (see what I did there?)
Descriptivist 75%. Just like I prefer Anglo American Empirical school philosophy, as opposed to European Rational school philosophy. ie how things are in the real world, not how we'd like them to be and the rules we'd like them to follow.... We'll have to agree to disagree 😏
But I believe the prescriptive question is much more linguistics than philosophy.
I had a friend who studied Linguistics, he loved talking about the great vowel shift and Chaucer too. Fascinating stuff.

Yes you're right about the essential idea behind Language Game Theory.
But believe me, when you dig into it, it's so subtle, the distinctions are so fine, impossible to grasp, very slippery ... I remember our lecturer having trouble with it and telling us just to read the man himself, and good luck with it 😳😂

Actually it's that oldest of questions. What are we saying to each other when we talk. Do we really understand each other, can we really describe the world. It can get very solipsistic - but that's the fools path. That's why the struggle to describe how we understand one another is so fascinating.
 

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Surely salvageable, just need to repeat the process and force it in proper shape.

No clue WTH you're talking about with polystyrene cups, submarines and neutron stars though lol 🤨🤔
I found the shortest video possible, one minute. But it gives you the idea.

 
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