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The 2022 Watch Purchasing Abstinence Club (WPAC).

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Hornet99
The 2022 Watch Purchasing Abstinence Club (WPAC).

Welcome to the 2022 Watch Purchasing Abstinence Club, otherwise known as WPAC. This is the 6th year of WPAC, which was started at the beginning of 2017 to try and get myself and some other addicts out of a crazy buying/flipping cycle with watches, we were buying for the sake of it rather than for the appreciation of the watch itself, constantly chasing the next, new shiny watch or searching endlessly, fixated on some watch; generally, IMHO, a rather unhealthy behaviour.

So, what is the point of WPAC? Well, the aim is to abstain from purchasing watches. But that's a bit blunt really, the abstinence is a tool or a method to break the cycle of buying/flipping and become a discerning consumer of horology. Learning to appreciate what you have, understand what works for you with watches and think rationally about purchases, rather than emotionally. Or the ethos of less is more, as some have suggested the philosophy is here. Yes we still love watches, but as we all know we can be weak, so WPAC is a place to get help; here you can take solace from like minded people and get support and encouragement to stop impulse buying.

With those that stick around and make some commitment WPAC has been successful; for me it's certainly helped me break the buy/flip cycle and stop obsessing, so maybe it can help you.

In previous years we've had some rules, but this year there aren't going to be, there seems little point when we all have subtly (sometimes massively) different goals. If you are in serious horological trouble with buying then look back at the OP in previous WPAC threads, the rules should be a useful starting point if you want to get things under control or just shout out here to get some advice, it's what we're good at. Think of it like a clubhouse or a WUS subforum dedicated to being friendly, chatting about everything and anything and where you can find like minded watch fans.

Having said that, there is one rule I'd like everyone to adhere to; first post should be an intro with a SOTC picture (include everything, don't cheat) and some goals/aims for 2022. Whether you want to abstain completely, want to save for a special watch, just need to take control, slow things down or whatever, we'll be happy to have everyone. Just as long as you're clear on what your aims are.

Please participate in the thread, it's what makes it what it is. Any reasonable topic of conversation is acceptable and in fact welcomed.

Bashing of any potential purchases should still be a mandatory element, but let's keep it funny. Nuclear level bashing is required for any actual purchases.
Expect to be challenged by others if you're suggesting a purchase, whatever your personal goals/aims and expect to need to defend yourself.

.....and one last thing, we do occasionally get some trolls visiting, let's agree to not feed them.

Edit - clarification on enabling: this is a difficult one to deal with as WPAC has evolved such that we discuss watches, post pictures, etc., previously we tried not doing that but it didn't really work and as well despite the temptation provided by this individuals need to develop the control to not be tempted every 5 minutes by something. However, this year we seem to have a mixture of regulars and new participants, and some the latter are wanting to abstain. Hence please don't directly enable by suggesting watches......
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Wimads
Hornet99 said:
Very nuanced point indeed......

.....I'd still disagree, if you are aiming to not ever buy any more watches then having a list of criteria is potentially a helpful tool to stop you buying randomly, not having a list of stoppers means you're less likely to check yourself. Checking something off against the list is likely to remind you of the aim to abstain.

If total abstinence is the goal then getting off WUS, etc where there is temptation is more critical than throwing the list away.

If I'd had the list of criteria from the start I'd have purchased a heck of a lot less and saved a pretty packet, but that's hindsight for you!

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one though......
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Your last point is not contended - a list helps as long as you're still in an aquiring mode.

But I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the purpose of a list of criteria post aquiring indeed.

I maintain that if you don't to stop focusing on those criteria once you get that BB58 (or whatever you end up choosing), you'll just repeat the same cycle again within a year of getting it, as you've done the past few years.
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TempusHertz said:
So, so true. I mean, look at this:


I don't care if there is tremendous horological skill and the best possible materials or whatever, that is a hot mess. If my 10 year old children had come home wearing something that looks like that, I'd have sat them down for some loving paternal guidance. And then gotten a hammer.

As Billy Joel said, you can't dress trashy 'till you spend a lot of money.

So there you go, WPAC saving you all hundreds of thousands of dollars. You're welcome. :cool::ROFLMAO:
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Such skill put to such waste. Its like Van Gogh painting doorframes of rich ppl's houses. "Hey I could paint brilliant paintings, but these ppl pay me **** loads for my name on their doorframes, soooo.. yeeaaahh.. ehh 🤷‍♂️"
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Wimads
So we're doing the criteria list then huh. Alright, here is mine:

  • does it do anything my current watches don't, and does that warrant the cost?
  • do my current watches do anything that this watch doesn't, and is it worth giving that up?

The answer is invariably no.
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TgeekB said:
My list:

1. Has to tell time
2. Has to look awesome on my wrist


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
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Good thing your wrist is so ugly, almost nothing looks good on it... Or you'd have a collection of Sticky's proportions...
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wgroves said:
I think you might sadly be right.

Watches are subject to the same market forces that led to the rise of crypto, NFTs, selling farts in jars, and selling NFTs of farts in jars.

Which is pretty disheartening.
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The world inside the digital social media universe is a crazy place... if the crazy stuff would stay virtual it would all be fine, but sadly in the past 5 years its becoming more and more apparent how the crazy movements in the digital world are starting to disrupt life in reality as well.

This is honestly one of the major worries I have for the future. The collapse of western society will not come from the middle east or China - it'll come from destabilizing digital movements within our own societies, that most politicians are completely oblivious to ...

NFT's are a great example of how bonkers ppl can go when they think they're operating in a virtual "not real" world. But the real threath is in when ppl start applying crazy ideas of the online world to reality.
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wgroves said:
Yeah, without trying to get political, I think we here in the US have really seen what happens when online movements have real-world consequences.

I think there's a good and bad side to this, though. The internet can be used to organize for productive movements/discussion/commerce etc. just like it can be used by movements who are a destabilizing influence on society or the economy. I think the bad actors here get a disproportionate amount of attention.

It seems every crypto/NFT/watch/fart investor thinks of themselves as disrupting the stodgy old inequitable traditional economy, without understanding the potential repercussions. Let alone the inequities that are inherent to this new form of investing.

I guess what I'm saying is that I think (hope?) these digital movements are like a hammer. You can use it to build a house, or you can use it to reenact the famous scene from the movie Oldboy.
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Yeah absolutely. The problem is that politicians don't recognize these dynamics, because they're oblivious to the digital places these things originate from.

In the Netherlands the past few years there's also all kinds of things happening in society, that politicians seem to struggle to grasp. There's one extreme politician, let's call him mister T, who's basically with the crazy digital conspiracy movement, making some outrageous statements, using dubious rhetoric. One of our ministers responded to some recent criminal events that happened by condemning mister T for his rhetoric - because in his perception mister T's choice of words drove people to commit these criminal actions. What this minister fails to see is that mister T is not the cause, but a symptom of the same digital movements that drove these events. And by condemning mister T, he's only fueling this digital movement, without realizing it.

You can use the digital world to good means as well, but as long as people in power don't recogize how these things work, it'll keep escalating further. And given the state of Dutch politics, I'm pretty pessimistic that even if they understood it, they'd put it to good use.... the only comforting thing is that in the Dutch system its pretty difficult for one crazy man or party to get into absolute power.
However little faith I have in our politicians across the board right now, I do have faith in the Dutch democracy. For all its worth, the mess in our parliament I guess its still a good reflection of the mess in our society.
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bth1234 said:
Here's some low hanging fruit.
Talk me out of this for 99euros. Sapphire crystal as well. How do they do it?

Invicta Watch Pro Diver 8926BRB - Official Invicta Store - Buy Online! (invictastores.eu)
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bth1234 said:
what I like is:
Elegance, first and foremost
I don't like lots of markings on bezels and minute tracks,
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Also, 24h bezel on a watch with no 24h hand, really, that got you tempted?
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Aaah said:
:LOL: :LOL: :LOL:

I like how you used the criteria list that you were arguing against to shoot @bth1234 down. There's probably a very long word in German to describe exactly this circumstance but I can't think of an English word or phrase.
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If he had not put effort in making that list, his mind may have been a little less fixated on watches, and I may not have had to shove his own list into his face...

Ofcourse, making that list is just a small part of generally the wrong mindset.. why was he even browsing invictas to begin with?
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bth1234 said:
Thanks for your help. I know you are putting me off so you can get one.

It's just so hard to pick between the Invicta and the Rolex, isn't it? I never use a GMT hand anyway. There isn't a long word in German for this. Serendipity is probably the one you have in mind. Good things happening to those who deserve them

Seriously, There's a feint minute track, it's only 40mm, and rare for Invicta, a sapphire bezel. I might ask Archie for a review. The worse thing is really the pepsi bezel. I never really understand blue and red with a black dial. Batman is better. I am also not keen really keen on the cyclops. FWIW, Christopher Ward had a similar pepsi GMT watch selling very quickly in their sale, and the blue/red was the same issue with their watch too.

I got it wrong, and there's no rush. It's not 4 hours. It's 4 days 8 hours. I clearly need this Invicta to help me tell the time and plan for the future. Wait though. If its got Invicta scratched on the case flank, that might put me off.
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Seriously, why do you need or even want this? You're trolling here aren't you? (Please tell me you are ...)

Its hard deciding between a Rolex or an Invicta. Why is that even a choice? No I don't mean that like "there isn't a choice because the Rolex is the obvious answer" - I mean it like there should not even be a choice between any 2 watches to begin with. When did this choice even come up? The answer is: neither.
Its like you entered the Rolex into the equation, just so you could invent a choice between a watch you shouldn't buy and a watch you can't buy, only to justify buying the watch you shouldn't buy.

40mm is rare for an invicta. That's seriously an argument for buying it? Do you hear yourself talking? Thats like saying, I don't really need a small hatchback, and Harley Davidson isn't usually into making underpowered small hatchback cars, and now here's a pretty mediocre looking Harley Davidson 50hp hatchback, and I got only 4hours to decide, so I need to buy it now! Wait wut?
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bth1234 said:
you roast watches even if they aren't deserving of a roasting, just because this is WPAC.
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Well obviously. That, and to hopefully talk some sense into ppl consuming watches like its food...

Also, I think I forgot the emoji's 😛😅😂 we're all having some fun here in the end, I'm not trying to be a cynical bastard. Just trying to slap some sense into people :p
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jmariorebelo said:
Oh I wouldn't sell the trio for that or any other watch around their combined worth, if I wanted to I would have done so already. I'm just rambling.

I see what you mean, on that specific Breguet timetelling isn't one of the main considerations, rather a happy coincidence. And I don't like that too much, no. Two more examples, Voutilainen 28ti and Akrivia AK-06. World class examples of, as you so well put it, the craft of horology, but even less legible.

The more I think about it the more I come to the same conclusions I had about the Ophion 786 Velos, back when I was shopping the Fears. It's an impressive watch, beautiful no doubt, but one of those I don't need to own. As much as the idea of owning it is alluring, reality would never be as good because it doesn't fit me. I just need to remind myself of this fact more frequently.
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Enjoying watches without having to own them is the art we must all learn to master in WPAC.
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JJ312 said:
I'm being tempted here, guys, and need some help. Brew is taking orders for their Metric model tomorrow. Please bash away:
View attachment 16363201
View attachment 16363202
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Be aware that a square watch will always wear significantly larger than its round counter part with the same width.

Surface area of a circle: πr^2
Surface area of a square: (2r)^2 (width is 2x radius)

With that we can calculate the ratio of diameter for round:square watch to get the same surface area:

π • r^2 : (2r)^2
√π • r : 2 • r
√3.1415 : 2
1.772 : 2
0.886 : 1
1 : 1.128

So a square watch wears like a round watch with 13% larger diameter. Meaning the brew at 36mm square will wear more like a 40.6mm round watch.

(Yeah, I'm procrastinating work rn 🤣)

[edited wording to be more accurate in terms of what is calculated here]
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Zzyzx said:
I saw in another conversation that someone had criticized a watch brand for "not having a signature piece like AP with the RO, etc."
Am I the only one who finds this perspective a bit odd? I mean, especially given that AP has become basically nothing but the RO? Plenty of brands have iconic pieces and also a wide variety. Cartier, Seiko, Casio, Rolex, etc. I'm sure having at least one super-famous design can be helpful, but it can also be a drawback when no one wants anything other than that one design.
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When you get a cash cow, you milk it. It's smart to keep coming up with new designs in the meantime, for the inevitable moment it runs out of milk.

But if you got a good one, that just doesn't seem to stop giving milk, you're no longer forced to be creative with new designs. Which is basically AP and the royal oak.
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bth1234 said:
Sorry to correct your numbers, but I don't think that's right.

A 40mm square watch of half diameter 20mm is 40mm x 40mm area, which is 4 x 20^2
A 40mm circular watch of half diameter 20mm (ie 40mm) is Pi x 20^2

So the square watch is bigger than the round one by a ratio of 4: Pi (not the sq roots of those 2 numbers as you show).

4 : Pi is about 1:27, so the square watch is actually 27% bigger, I think.
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No, you make a mistake there. You calculated the percent difference in surface area for a same diameter round and square watch.

I calculated the percent difference in diameter (or radius) to get the same surface area for a round and square watch.

36^2 = 1296mm2 (square watch area)

36*1.128 = 40.6mm (round watch equivalent diameter according to my calculated numbers), so 20.3 radius.

π*20.3^2 = 1294.6mm2 (round watch area). Close enough.

In other words, a 36mm square watch has the same surface area as a 40.6mm round watch. Which equates to a ~13% ratio when comparing diameters.

A 36mm square watch is indeed 27% larger in surface area than a 36mm round watch. But we're trying to determine how a 36mm square watch wears. And when we talk about how something wears we think in terms of diameters, and not in terms of surface area. So 36mm square wears like a 13% larger diameter (40.6mm) round watch ;)

I may have worded my original post inaccurately though, when saying I was comparing ratio of surface areas - edited wording of original post for accuracy.
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mconlonx said:
That's like when someone is looking for a 36mm watch, and people suggest 38 or even 40mm examples. Many are all, "What? It's only an extra 2-4mm..."

But no.
Area of:
36mm dia = 1018 sq mm
38 = 1134
40 = 1257
42 = 1385

diameter, 38/36 = 5% difference
but
area, 1134/1018 = 11% difference.
More than twice larger than "It's only 2mm larger" would have you believe...
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Yeah, you're touching upon the same as BTH. It depends on what unit for watch size you use what percentage you arrive at.

Given my and BTH's calculations, you could state that:

A square watch wears 27% larger than a round watch;

AND

A square watch wears like a 13% larger diameter round watch;

Both are accurate. The former may be more accurate in terms of how it feels. The latter is more useful in trying to determine what actual size watch that equates to.
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mconlonx said:
It does leave one scratching head about PP discontinuing their most popular model, the stainless 5711 Nautilus. The well had not run dry for that model, no telling if aftermarket pricing had peaked or not, but certainly they could sell as many as they could make, at retail, for the foreseeable future...

A brand without a breakout model is simply a brand that has not yet come up with an iconic design.
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The specific 5711 model Nautilus is not the cash cow. The general Nautilus design is the cash cow - and they're milking it by keeping on making endless variations on it. You don't milk a cash cow by just keeping selling the same exact thing - you milk it by selling ever new permutations of the same exact thing. You need to at least pretend you're innovating, or the cow will run dry...
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Hornet99 said:
How's about just saying that a square watch wears differently and that trying to compare by areas is just silly?! Areas aren't the issue, isn't it still the lug to lug length that will still be crucial to the way it wears?
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L2L is another factor. But don't tell me you haven't experienced the difference in how a square vs round watch wears?! Width and L2L being equal, square still definitely wears a LOT larger than a round watch.

[Edit] oh right, forgot to mention. No, don't go buy a square watch now to see for yourself...
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Piowa said:
I have two watches (a diver and a chrono). I don't wear suits, so I need dress watch.

View attachment 16367385

View attachment 16367388

Please convince me that I don't need another diver (Bulova Sea King)

View attachment 16367392

Which is:
  • much heavier (156 g vs. 96 g of my Seiko)
  • two times more expensive than my Seiko
  • 300M WR vs. 200M WR (my Seiko)
  • with saphire vs. mineral glass (my Seiko)
  • uglier (???) than my Seiko
  • with sweeping second hand - do I REALLY need it?

Bulova is supposed to be accurate to +/- 10 second per year

However my Seiko is +1 second per 45 days, so it is more or less the same.

Cheers, Piowa
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So you always need to carry an inbus key to use bezel huh.. I guess that's another interpretation of a "tool watch"... 🤣
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bth1234 said:
So someone linked to a extra 20% of sale watches in Beaverbrooks, a UK jeweller.

I was taken by this as a change to the standard chronomaster. Maybe all black makes it bit too close to a speedy. The strap isn't the best colour. It would also be my most expensive watch, so it's not an impulse buy. £4476 instead of £7200, so 38% off. Looking carefully, It's actually not too different to the TRI-03 I bought before Christmas (picture below). Actually, on this basis I think I don't need to be told, but tell my why to keep my money in my pocket, please. Sorry it's not exactly an "affordable", is it?

Zenith Chronomaster El Primero Range Rover Automatic Chronograph Men's Watch 24.2040.400/27.R797 | 42 mm, Grey Dial | Beaverbrooks

View attachment 16369197


The tri-03 from Tribus-Watches
View attachment 16369173
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Why are you continuously monitoring watch deals?

It seems that every temptation you posted so far was some variation of a "good deal."

Those deals don't just randomly come across your screen, they only do if you are looking for them - okay fair enough, you may see the occasional ad, but other than that you'll not find a good deal if you're not browsing on any webshop or the deals thread or something similar.

If you want to get your purchasing under control (which I presume you want, since you are here), you need to stop the hunt for good deals.

You need to reverse your approach to aquisition:

Typical addict approach: browse for deals > spot a deal > evaluate if you can afford it > evaluate if you like it > decide you want to buy it.

Approach of someone in control: Decide you want to buy something > evaluate what you like > evaluate what you can afford > search for the best deal.

Note that the decision to purchase something is the first consideration. You only start looking once you have decided its ok to buy something, not the other way around.
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crAss said:
Hi!
I am feeling weird, really weird. It started over a year ago, but it has evolved and I would guess, matured.
I do not have a single watch left in my "list to buy" and I have just a single strap on the strap list as well (a cheap one which I will probably get soon). I browse the forums regularly, look actively for new things, but I cannot seem to find something that I WANT and I do not have. Last watch bought almost half a year ago.
Also, it has settled that I will not be buying an "expensive" watch (3-7k) even though the homages/affordables where there to cover the time until enough money was in the pot. I have played a lot with homages and affordable original designs the funny thing is while I actually bought at some points watches at the 250-400 euro range, I am not attracted to that price range since I do not find any added value for most with the 80-150 euro range.
The only real thing left in my "to do" list concerning watches is to attand a watchmakers class/seminar, which will have to wait due to having two babies and no time available for at least the next 2-3 years. I already do some basic stuff on my own, but would want to first attend a real class before e.g., attempting to clean and oil a movement.

Right now I have about 30 watches (the about because there are some in pieces in the drawer which could be fixed but I am not really sure I will actually fix them) and my wife makes fun of me when I bring out the strap collection which now has a lot (I guess over 70, haven't really counted them for a long time). I have now settled down with which straps I like with which watch for any season of the year and actively exchange straps and watches.

Is it a weird behaviour? Should I feel lucky? Is it a passing phase that I need to try to extend as much as possible? Has anyone else been here?
Click to expand...
When the chase stops being interesting, you can truly start to enjoy what you already have. It's not weird, its the way normal people outside WIS circles enjoy watches! Welcome to the club :)
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