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You have one example of the Seiko, one of the Orient, and 0 of the movement in question. So you have two movements totally irrelevant to the thread that have nothing whatsoever to do with the Miyota cal. 9000 that we're talking about, and you want to not only extrapolate to all Seiko 6R15s and Orient movements ever made (ignoring the fact that there's at least three versions of the 6R15 alone), but you want to extrapolate to a movement that has nothing to do with those two. There's just no sense in that.
I do not think it is totally irrelevant. Here are two movements on the same price range that received alot of hype from their fans. The argument was that they outperfom the official ratings. Based on this, I bit and I got burned. They perform within specs but not better. Particularly the much beloved 6R15b let me down with its mediocre accuracy. The new 6R15c has a bigger power reserve because of the new Spron main spring but the official ratings are the same on accuracy. So I am not going to give it more credit. Similarly I am not going to give more credit to 9015 if the official rating is -10/+30.

Hacking is not a complication. It's irrelevant in any case because both movements in question, the Cal. 9000 and ETA 2824 are all hacking. In my view, and in the view of virtually all watchmakers in the world, constituting well over 99.9% of watches made and bought, hacking is preferable.
I am sorry but you are wrong here. This is off topic but it should be clarified. A basic movement consists of a gear works, escapement, balance wheel and keyless works. These are the basics it needs in order to carry out its purpose of showing the time. Anything added on top of it is a complication. If you will ever assemble a watch you will realize the difference. You can have simple ones like the automatic winding, hacking, day, date, micro-regulator or more advanced ones like the chronograph, moon phase, perpetual calendar, repeater, turbillon, etc. Even the center seconds was considered a complication when it first appeared as it required an additional gear. About hacking, it appeared originally in military watches as synchronizing at second was critical for some activities.

We don't have much data, but 100% of the data we have suggests that these are very accurate. You can already read the reports in this thread and elsewhere on WUS, here's another ton of positive reviews:

Anyone know the expected accuracy of the Miyota 9015 movement?
It is not 100%. Here is a report on a 9010 that gives +20s rate. The user had to had it regulated by a watchmaker to run properly.

https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/miyota-9015-im-impressed-768887-4.html

This is more in par with the experience I had with my 6R15b.

Again, you keep thinking somehow that Japan, the country, makes one kind of movement. Seiko alone makes more than a dozen different mechanical movements at any given time, not counting spring drives. And their design is substantially different than Orient and Miyota/Citizen. And the same is true for Switzerland. It is completely impossible to compare movements by the country. And no, your 2824 isn't going to outperform my 9S85. If you're lucky, it'll keep up with my 6R24.

If you want to wait for an easier to regulate watch, just get the Cal. 0910 that has existed since 2009-2010 already that you keep leaving out. But why do you need to regulate your watch so often? If you just buy a Cal. 9000 right now, you don't have to regulate it, it'll be accurate out of the box. So I don't understand why you keep going back to these various approaches to moving a regulator. And which system? Why so much love for Etachron? Why not a swan neck? Or, better yet a Triovis? What's so magical about Etachron?
First, I do not generalize. I just compare movements available in watches within the same price range based solely on official ratings and on my personal experience.

Second, let's not compare apples with oranges. Cal 0910, although shares the basic design with 9015 is a completely different breed as it is highly refined, has different balance wheel, micro-regulator and it is perhaps adjusted manually to several positions. The same goes for Seiko 9S. These are much more expensive calibers. If you want, you can compare them with a 2824-2 Chronometer but not with Standard. I have no comment to make on this category as I do not have experience with any of them.

Third, I do not care about Etachron. Any micro-regulator will do as long as it is effective.

As per waiting for better accuracy ratings, I think that's perfectly reasonable. We now know that, in general, the Cal. 9000 easily outperforms its ratings, but it is just a matter of time until someone gets unlucky, and should that be you, you won't have a warranty to fall back on. So as a matter of insurance, or risk management, that's perfectly reasonable. But risk management is an entirely different concept than how the movement is actually made and designed.

...

I get that you don't like the rating. Neither do I. But from everything we've seen, and I mean everything, 100% as far as I can tell, the performance is great. The consumer is taking on a bit of risk when they buy a Cal 9000 if they're expecting excellent accuracy because there's no recourse if its only mediocre. But Citizen comps you for the risk with a very low cost and excellent performance.
This is exactly my point. If the movement is so good, why Miyota does not gives the guarantee of a better performance? Why me, as a customer, I have to get some risk when buying it. For the money I pay, I want a guaranteed level of performance. If there are other reliable manufacturers that guarantee better performance within the same price range I will buy their products - I will not care of the origin of the manufacture.
 

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Discussion Starter · #102 · (Edited)
I do not think it is totally irrelevant. Here are two movements on the same price range that received alot of hype from their fans. The argument was that they outperfom the official ratings. Based on this, I bit and I got burned. They perform within specs but not better. Particularly the much beloved 6R15b let me down with its mediocre accuracy. The new 6R15c has a bigger power reserve because of the new Spron main spring but the official ratings are the same on accuracy. So I am not going to give it more credit. Similarly I am not going to give more credit to 9015 if the official rating is -10/+30.



I am sorry but you are wrong here. This is off topic but it should be clarified. A basic movement consists of a gear works, escapement, balance wheel and keyless works. These are the basics it needs in order to carry out its purpose of showing the time. Anything added on top of it is a complication. If you will ever assemble a watch you will realize the difference. You can have simple ones like the automatic winding, hacking, day, date, micro-regulator or more advanced ones like the chronograph, moon phase, perpetual calendar, repeater, turbillon, etc. Even the center seconds was considered a complication when it first appeared as it required an additional gear. About hacking, it appeared originally in military watches as synchronizing at second was critical for some activities.



It is not 100%. Here is a report on a 9010 that gives +20s rate. The user had to had it regulated by a watchmaker to run properly.

https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/miyota-9015-im-impressed-768887-4.html

This is more in par with the experience I had with my 6R15b.



First, I do not generalize. I just compare movements available in watches within the same price range based solely on official ratings and on my personal experience.

Second, let's not compare apples with oranges. Cal 0910, although shares the basic design with 9015 is a completely different breed as it is highly refined, has different balance wheel, micro-regulator and it is perhaps adjusted manually to several positions. The same goes for Seiko 9S. These are much more expensive calibers. If you want, you can compare them with a 2824-2 Chronometer but not with Standard. I have no comment to make on this category as I do not have experience with any of them.

Third, I do not care about Etachron. Any micro-regulator will do as long as it is effective.



This is exactly my point. If the movement is so good, why Miyota does not gives the guarantee of a better performance? Why me, as a customer, I have to get some risk when buying it. For the money I pay, I want a guaranteed level of performance. If there are other reliable manufacturers that guarantee better performance within the same price range I will buy their products - I will not care of the origin of the manufacture.
I do not think it is totally irrelevant. Here are two movements on the same price range that received alot of hype from their fans. The argument was that they outperfom the official ratings. Based on this, I bit and I got burned. They perform within specs but not better. Particularly the much beloved 6R15b let me down with its mediocre accuracy. The new 6R15c has a bigger power reserve because of the new Spron main spring but the official ratings are the same on accuracy. So I am not going to give it more credit. Similarly I am not going to give more credit to 9015 if the official rating is -10/+30.[/QUOTE]

It's totally irrelevant. Those movements have nothing whatsoever to do with the Cal. 9000. As I've already pointed out, the rating on the cal 9000 is much tighter than that on a standard ETA 2824 that you like.

"I am sorry but you are wrong here. This is off topic but it should be clarified. A basic movement consists of a gear works, escapement, balance wheel and keyless works. These are the basics it needs in order to carry out its purpose of showing the time. Anything added on top of it is a complication. If you will ever assemble a watch you will realize the difference. You can have simple ones like the automatic winding, hacking, day, date, micro-regulator or more advanced ones like the chronograph, moon phase, perpetual calendar, repeater, turbillon, etc. Even the center seconds was considered a complication when it first appeared as it required an additional gear. About hacking, it appeared originally in military watches as synchronizing at second was critical for some activities."

You keep getting side tracked on this. First off, it's not a complication. Tourbillons, free sprung balances, etc, aren't complications either. But it doesn't matter. All movements in question (cal 9000, 2824) have hacking.

"It is not 100%. Here is a report on a 9010 that gives +20s rate. The user had to had it regulated by a watchmaker to run properly."

Awesome, so you found a single mediocre report. I'm sure I could never find one report of an ETA needing regulating. The Cal 9000's success rate here is now only like 98% +. I can also show you new Rolexes, Omegas, even JLCs that needed regulating out of the box. We should assume that 100% of those movements are bad now because one of them got beat up too much when it was being sent through FedEx.

"First, I do not generalize. I just compare movements available in watches within the same price range based solely on official ratings and on my personal experience."

The 6R15 has nothing at all to do with the Cal. 9000. You cannot learn anything about the Cal. 9000 from it. They have nothing in common. Not even a screw. Your attempts to extrapolate the performance of the Cal 9000 from the 6R15 are about as likely to be successful as me trying to get performance data about a 3135 from an 8500. They are, after all, from the same country, so we can assume they're basically identical, right?

"Second, let's not compare apples with oranges. Cal 0910, although shares the basic design with 9015 is a completely different breed as it is highly refined, has different balance wheel, micro-regulator and it is perhaps adjusted manually to several positions. The same goes for Seiko 9S. These are much more expensive calibers. If you want, you can compare them with a 2824-2 Chronometer but not with Standard. I have no comment to make on this category as I do not have experience with any of them."

The Cal 0910 doesn't share the basic design. It's a unique calibre with different dimensions. My point is that you keep whining about how Citizen didn't give you a specific kind of regulator, I say they DO give you that regulator if you want it, and then you complain that it's not on every movement they make. And you still don't understand how it works and why it is so that if you spend a proper amount of time adjusting a regulated watch, you can achieve identical results with or without a micro regulator.

"Similarly I am not going to give more credit to 9015 if the official rating is -10/+30."

That's fine, for purposes of our discussion, I will assume your standard ETA 2824s cannot achieve better daily performance than + or - 30, which is their daily rating. So if I roll with your argument, the ETA loses big time (adjusted 2 positions, much looser rating). If you go with my argument (that ratings are for warranty purposes and for the most part tell us very little about movements technically) then you lose. Actually, come to think of it, your argument is harder on your side. So there we go. All standard ETA 2824s are never, ever capable of achieving better accuracy than a full minute (!) per day, and that's only assuming it's kept in one of the two positions (as opposed to four on the 9000) that it's adjusted for. Whereas the Cal. 9000 can never achieve less than 40 seconds per day in any of four positions. So running on your argument, the standard 2824 is, at the very best of times, 50% less accurate than the Cal 9000, and that's assuming it's in the two meager positions it was adjusted to in the beginning.

So there you go. According to you, the Cal 9000 is much more accurate. You're a lot harsher on the 2824 than I am. I was just saying the cal 9000 was comparable, or perhaps (time will tell) slightly better, but according to you, it's MUCH more accurate.
 

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That's fine, for purposes of our discussion, I will assume your standard ETA 2824s cannot achieve better daily performance than + or - 30, which is their daily rating. So if I roll with your argument, the ETA loses big time (adjusted 2 positions, much looser rating). If you go with my argument (that ratings are for warranty purposes and for the most part tell us very little about movements technically) then you lose. Actually, come to think of it, your argument is harder on your side. So there we go. All standard ETA 2824s are never, ever capable of achieving better accuracy than a full minute (!) per day, and that's only assuming it's kept in one of the two positions (as opposed to four on the 9000) that it's adjusted for. Whereas the Cal. 9000 can never achieve less than 40 seconds per day in any of four positions. So running on your argument, the standard 2824 is, at the very best of times, 50% less accurate than the Cal 9000, and that's assuming it's in the two meager positions it was adjusted to in the beginning.
I can't quite follow your argument as the 2824-2 is rated to -12/+12 per day while 9015 is rated to -10/+30.

Anyhow, I think this debate is going nowhere. I believe the best thing is to agree we disagree. You rate quite high the 9015 while I am skeptical about it. I will reconsider my opinion the moment Miyota will upgrade it with a micro-regulator and better official rating.

Momentarily I am not that much into modern movements. I discovered I have a passion for vintage movements with low-beat and large balance wheel. Nothing can beat the fascinating aesthetic of a slow moving large balance wheel.
 

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Nothing can beat the fascinating aesthetic of a slow moving large balance wheel.
And the incredibly loud noise it makes |>
 
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Discussion Starter · #105 ·
I can't quite follow your argument as the 2824-2 is rated to -12/+12 per day while 9015 is rated to -10/+30.

Anyhow, I think this debate is going nowhere. I believe the best thing is to agree we disagree. You rate quite high the 9015 while I am skeptical about it. I will reconsider my opinion the moment Miyota will upgrade it with a micro-regulator and better official rating.

Momentarily I am not that much into modern movements. I discovered I have a passion for vintage movements with low-beat and large balance wheel. Nothing can beat the fascinating aesthetic of a slow moving large balance wheel.
The 2824 "standard" has a maximum daily deviation of + or - 30 seconds, and the 9015 is +30/-10, as well as adjusted to twice as many positions. You're quoting the average deviation, not the maximum daily deviation. So you basically use the best number available for the ETA and the worst for 9015 in order to manufacture an advantage. Citizen/Miyota only lists the daily deviation, and that the +30/-10 is tested in four positions (instead of 2).

ETA SA - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

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Discussion Starter · #108 ·
Low beat definitely sound different, but I think maybe LVT is referring to pin lever escapements, which as far as I know, were all low beats and extraordinarily loud.

Does anyone still make those? They should.
 

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Low beat definitely sound different, but I think maybe LVT is referring to pin lever escapements, which as far as I know, were all low beats and extraordinarily loud.

Does anyone still make those? They should.
I'm pretty sure they stopped making then because they're crap! Low accuracy and reliability due to the friction on the metal pins as opposed to the much lower-friction jewels.

But you probably knew that already ;-)
 

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Discussion Starter · #110 ·
I'm pretty sure they stopped making then because they're crap! Low accuracy and reliability due to the friction on the metal pins as opposed to the much lower-friction jewels.

But you probably knew that already ;-)
That's all true, but they have a certain charm to them. Their noise is really cool lol.
 

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The 2824 "standard" has a maximum daily deviation of + or - 30 seconds, and the 9015 is +30/-10, as well as adjusted to twice as many positions. You're quoting the average deviation, not the maximum daily deviation. So you basically use the best number available for the ETA and the worst for 9015 in order to manufacture an advantage. Citizen/Miyota only lists the daily deviation, and that the +30/-10 is tested in four positions (instead of 2).

ETA SA - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
You may be right about it - I will investigate.
 

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In reading I missed one thing; has anyone timed the Japanese movements to discern their accuracy when compared to the Swiss? If a good watchmaker was to focus on them both, the results might be surprisingly similar. Quality control in assembly has a lot to do with out of the box performance.
But, who other than a WIS is going to be concerned about a few seconds a day. I have a non-WIS friend that I gave a Seiko 5 to about 6 years ago. He sets the time about every 3-6 months, and usually because I am setting mine and he walks in. He's never late for appointments...LOL...
SWATCH decided that things are going to be different. And, they may have unleashed a monster that is much bigger than they could have anticipated; no one else seems to have thought about it prior, either.
I vaguely recall a Watch Time interview with Nick Hayek. His stated goal was to increase variety in the Swiss watch market, instead of everyone selling a handful of standard ETA movement wrapped in different cases which (if I recall correctly) he feared would eventually lead Swiss watch manufacturers into a race to the bottom (in which they'd compete on price instead of features and innovation). I presume that he expected Swiss companies to fill the void, probably with the Richemont and LVMH groups each creating a movement division similar to SWATCH's ETA, plus a few of the smaller independant companies like Sellita getting into the movement business and filling the void for smaller manufacturers. However, I think the elite of the Swiss watch making underestimated the Chinese and Japanese and failed to consider the inroads they would make when Swatch created a vacuum by pulling out of the market.
 

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I can't quite follow your argument as the 2824-2 is rated to -12/+12 per day while 9015 is rated to -10/+30.
Those ratings are for different specifications (average rate versus maximum allowed rate) and thus comparing them is not invalid. If you instead look at the same specification (maxiumum allowed rate) the 9015 clearly beats the 2824 standard and elabore. The data comes from post #95, hopefully organizing the data will make this clearer and put an end to an argument seeming based on a misunderstanding:

Avg. RateMax. RatePositions
Miyota 9015?-10 / +304
ETA 2824 Standard-12 / +12-30 / +302
ETA 2824 Elabore-7 / +7-30 / +303
ETA 2824 Top-4 / +4-10 / + 105

There is no average deviation specification for the Miyota 9015 so the specifications we can compare between the two movements are the maximum allowed deviation (anything greater than which would be considered defective for warranty purposes) and the number of positions tested. Compared to the somewhat similarly priced 2824 standard and elabore grades, the 9015 has better numbers in both of the comparable specifications. Therefore, if you compare specifications the 9015 is clearly superior. If you instead compare field results the available data is ancedotal and noisy; however, based on this suboptimal data both movements appear to perform well enough with any differences between them too small to discern over the noise inherent to the data.
 

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Those ratings are for different specifications (average rate versus maximum allowed rate) and thus comparing them is not invalid. If you instead look at the same specification (maxiumum allowed rate) the 9015 clearly beats the 2824 standard and elabore. The data comes from post #95, hopefully organizing the data will make this clearer and put an end to an argument seeming based on a misunderstanding:

Avg. RateMax. RatePositions
Miyota 9015?-10 / +304
ETA 2824 Standard-12 / +12-30 / +302
ETA 2824 Elabore-7 / +7-30 / +303
ETA 2824 Top-4 / +4-10 / + 105

There is no average deviation specification for the Miyota 9015 so the specifications we can compare between the two movements are the maximum allowed deviation (anything greater than which would be considered defective for warranty purposes) and the number of positions tested. Compared to the somewhat similarly priced 2824 standard and elabore grades, the 9015 has better numbers in both of the comparable specifications. Therefore, if you compare specifications the 9015 is clearly superior. If you instead compare field results the available data is ancedotal and noisy; however, based on this suboptimal data both movements appear to perform well enough with any differences between them too small to discern over the noise inherent to the data.

In fact, Miyota reports two measurements in their specification - Accuracy and Posture Difference. See below the extract from their specs:
Text Font Line Number

available on internet at: http://www.citizen.co.jp/miyota_mvt/9015/pdf/spec_9015.pdf

While Posture Difference is clearly superior to 2824-2 Standard and Elabore, it is quite unclear to me how they define Accuracy. I would assume the Posture difference to be equivalent to Maximum Rate while the Accuracy equivalent to Average Rate. Please correct me if I am wrong.
 
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