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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Since this issue has been boiling the waters around here recently, I decided to post to articles I have just found from "aBlogtoRead"

ARTICLE 1

Lots of people are starting to notice that watch makers are starting to indicate the movement of a watch as "Swiss Movement." For most of us, such an ambiguous designation is unacceptable, as this can mean just about anything. Strictly speaking, for a watch or movement to legally have the "Swiss Made" designation upon it, the watch or movement does not have to be made or assembled completely in Switzerland. In fact, only a certain percentage of the components must be made in Switzerland, and the watch does not need to be put together in Switzerland.
Regardless, of the circumstances where you see "Swiss Movement," this means essentially one thing, the movement in the watch is going to be either an ETA or Sellita movement. Ablogtoread.com wrote an article regarding Sellita's presence here. Occasionally there are other potential makers, but this is rare. So you ask yourself, "I don't know what movement I am getting? What am I even paying for?" This is a perfectly reasonable question to ask, but consider this. Lets say ETA are the "name brand" movements, and the Sellita movements are the "generic brand." Each is identical in construction and function. Small differences might lay in the quality of manufacture, and special modifications for the manufacturers, but for the most part, the movements function the same, and have similar accuracy and reliability.
Sellita is a Swiss movement manufacturer and for the most part copies ETA movements. It does this because it has the machinery capable of such work, along with the fact that the ETA designs are old enough to likely no longer be protected under any Patent rights. For this reason Sellita can make copies of ETA movements just like drug companies can make generic drugs after a period of time.
Having said that, when you see the Sellita SW200 movement in a watch, it is the same movement as an ETA 2824-2. The reason watch makers are using Sellita movements, is not so much about cost, but more having to do with the fact that ETA is slowing down production and will cease to provide movements to watch makers outside the Swatch Group in 2010. So because ETA movements are harder to get, watch makers will use an ETA or Sellita movement depending on what they are able to acquire in time to put the watches together.
Fear not the Sellita movements as they appear to be just as good as ETA. The true test will come in a few years, but know that the parts are the same, and ETA parts will fit into Sellita movements to the best of my knowledge. Despite this, some people are still all about having an ETA movement, you can rest assured that most watch makers are complete sticklers for quality, and would not use any movement that would do their name injustice.


ARTICLE 2

Most watches companies do not make their own movements. Quality watch makers buy their movements from mostly ETA, the quasi-government owned movement powerhouse. In 2010 however, ETA will stop selling its movements to outside companies. It will continue to provide movements for it's house brands, of which there are several. ETA is part of the Swatch Group which makes a number of brands as seen in the link. When ETA stops providing movements to out-side brands, they will have to go elsewhere for movements.
Sellita is a growing movement maker in Switzerland, but has had a bit of a copycat history. They mostly copied ETA movements. Can they do this? Well, probably, at least in the US. Most ETA movements have been around for a while and in the US Patents last for 20 years only. Because movements are machines, they only intellectual property protection they would have is a patent, and presumably the European patent laws are similar to those of the US. Take the ETA 2824-2 movement, which has been around since the 1970s. Because over 20 years has passed since the, copycats are free to make the movements, the only barrier would be technology. Meaning Sellit and other movement makers would have to have the proper machinery to produce the delicate movement parts. China on the other hand would never even think to check on infringing intellectual property rights before copying something.
We can assume that Sellita has such technology because large brands such as Invicta have been buying from them at large for years. It is predicted that Sellita will step in ETA's shoes and start providing movements on a mass scale in the next few years. Right now, Sellita has a reputation for being a bit lower quality, but that will change in the coming years with high production, and consumer demand. We shall wait and see what role Sellita has in the next few years.
 

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Some of this is factually wrong and I've communicated with Ariel Adams about this issue.

ETA is stopping shipment of ebauches, not complete movements. I expect in a few years it's more likely they'll completely stop movement exports outside of the Swatch group but probably not until there are more Soprods and Setilla expands its production lines.

While a Setilla movement is probably very good, if given the choice between a Setilla and an ETA or even a higher end Made in Japan Seiko movement, Setilla would be my last choice.
 

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and can you tell us why please?:think:
 
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Swiss made ETA movements are the finest most tested movements under $500. They have a long history of quality and consistency. Seiko Japanese made movements is a close second in terms of reliably delivering movements of a high quality. Setilla is probably very good as well but so far hasn't had the history to back it up and it's unclear if their QC process is as thorough as ETA or Seiko since they're still relatively new and not in as wide adoption.

I certainly wouldn't refuse to buy a watch with a Setilla movement but the price better reflect it. If I were given the option to choose a watch at the exact same price with the exact same design but the only difference being movement, my choice would be:

1. Soprod A-10
2. Swiss ETA
3. Japan Seiko
4. Swiss Setilla
 

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ETA use to sends movements to Sellita for extra finish work in the past, such as pearling and decorating movement, Sellita got into the movement building part in 2003 with there first movement the sw200, almost a copy of the 2824, they also have the sw220 , sw240 [day/date wheel] they also have the sw300 and the sw500 automatic chronograph. Stellita opened in the 1950's and has been a very successful business. Some people refuse to accept that they make a excellent product, but some people still think the world is flat. lol
 

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We can continue to talk in circles about it but I'll just cut to the chase.

Companies use Sellita when they can't get a hold of an ETA or a Soprod is too expensive.
 

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What is the difference between the ETA and the Soprod?
I know that Ball uses the Soprod in the EHCIII.

Take care

RR
 

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We can continue to talk in circles about it but I'll just cut to the chase.

Companies use Sellita when they can't get a hold of an ETA or a Soprod is too expensive.
You might be right about that for now, but i think that watch company's[ not swatch] will start using Sellita a lot more in the future, and they will continue to expand, I think there product will continue to improve and more people will accept them as maybe an equal ;-)
 

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Is there any proof that an ETA 2824 is superior to an SW200 in terms of reliability, accuracy or resistance to shock?

I'd be a bit surprised if the 2824 was superior and wouldn't be surprised if the opposite were true.

The Sellita is a more modern rendition of the movement, made using recent manufacturing techniques, processes and machinery, and the refinement that is possible when you can study something that has a long production history instead of starting from scratch.

What is clear to me is that Sellita and the SW200 has less marketing value, than ETA and the venerable 2824. I would be very surprised if the superior marketing value isn't one of the principle drivers for the selection of the 2824 over the SW200.

Of course, the ugly truth of watches, as with all luxury goods, is that marketing value is probably more important than any other product content.
 

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i really dont care what movt is inside a timepiece, as long as it is from a reputable watchmaker that puts their watches to a battery of quality tests.
 

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i really dont care what movt is inside a timepiece, as long as it is from a reputable watchmaker that puts their watches to a battery of quality tests.
Bingo. If Tag puts it in there it's probably very well made. There are so many movement snobs on these forums it's amazing. I can understand paying more for a manufacture movement if it offers better performance (ie significantly better power reserve, additional complications, perhaps even better aesthetics)...but other than that if the movement is accurate and reliable the manufacturer of the movement doesn't make a huge difference to me. I think it's hilarious when people get obsessed over slight differences in movements - esp those behind a steel caseback anyway.

My guess is the Sellita is just as good as an ETA. And that's coming from someone who owns at least 5 ETA-driven watches.

NM
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I am no expert, but I'd say even the so called manufactures outsource a lot of parts to their watches.
 

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I am no expert, but I'd say even the so called manufactures outsource a lot of parts to their watches.
Dr. Ranfft said Roamer made every part in its movements (down to the screws!) but they were a rare bird for doing so...
 

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We can continue to talk in circles about it but I'll just cut to the chase.

Companies use Sellita when they can't get a hold of an ETA or a Soprod is too expensive.
The Swiss watch industry is one of the most conservative in the world so it would take a century to wean them off their current suppliers no matter how superior the competition.

BTW Sellita is a subcontractor for ETA. An ETA movement from ETA with ETA on it might have been made by Sellita.
 

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My invicta 9937 has a sellita sw200, its running -3sec/day so far for 1 month now,,awesome watch for just $220 you cant beat that...

The Swiss watch industry is one of the most conservative in the world so it would take a century to wean them off their current suppliers no matter how superior the competition.

BTW Sellita is a subcontractor for ETA. An ETA movement from ETA with ETA on it might have been made by Sellita.
 

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There has been too much emphasis on the watch movement. Of course it is important to have a high quality Swiss movement ticking inside your timepiece, especially if the movement is visible through the exhibition back or even the skeletal front. However, whether or not we want to admit it, a man's watch is not so much of of a functional tool but more of an item of jewelry. Anyone can buy an expensive quartz and be happy with the superior accuracy of its time-keeping function. When we shell out hundreds if not thousands of dollars for a micromechanical engine encased in an exquisite design, it is more about art and beauty. Wearing a mechanical watch, automatic or otherwise, is about making a statement. And it would be a weak statement if the watch case, band or bracelet, material, design, and workmanship are not reflecting the statement we want to make. Except for the watch aficionado community, most people would be lost on the intricacies of movement history and minor variations between one calibre and another. At the end, as long as you have a quality movement ticking inside the watch case, it is all about how the looks and feel of the complete timepiece appeal to you and others, IMHO.
 

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I work in Design/Engineering for manufacture and have a close friend that worked for ETA up until very recently.

Sellita are not Swiss or even based in Switzerland. They are a Chinese company that manufactures components & assembles Swiss movements. There biggest single client is ETA.

The Sellita Sw200 & ETA 2824 are almost 100% identical in aesthetic / engineering & function. The accuracy test underline this fact 100% - there is vurtually no difference of any measurable significance. Just because you have an ETA movement, supplied by ETA, with 'ETA' etched onto it does not mean that some or all of the components have been made or assembled else where.

Most of the opinions on here regarding this matter are really lacking in any technical knowledge or real understanding of how these company's operate in a commercial manufacturing sense.

I get the impression that there is a bit of snobbery connected to a movement being from ETA...because its an older, more established brand and most importantly, not based in China. This is fair enough if you are purist and insist in a 100% Swiss made watch. The very fact that ETA buy huge QTY's of parts from Sellita to populate there 2824 is an endorsement of the quality that Sellita is able to supply.

Oris now supply the majority of there diver range with Sellita movements - which in my opinion are the best Divers under $2K. Omega have Sellita manufacturing various components for there watches also.

People should also understand that even a watch manufacturer that states '100% Swiss' is still able to purchase or have third party companies based outside of Switzerland manufacture and supply them parts. most countries will allow this kind of statement if more than 60-70 of th product is either manufactured or assembled onshore. I just finished a product (admittedly not a watch) for a company that was manufactured 100% in China, but then shipped to Australia for assembly and sales. It has the green 'Australia Made' tag proudly embossed on in packaging.

Unless you are paying serious dollars for a small/limited production run (50-100) Swiss high end watch, the chances are that some if not a great many of the components tht make up your watch have come from somewhere outside of Switzerland i.e. China, Japan, Malaysia etc.

The simple fact is that the SW200 and 2824 are 99.9% identical in every respect other than there names.
 

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Yesterday I opened up a SW200 for to be regulated. FYI it was a 2010 Aquaracer 300 (WAN2111.BA0822). I noticed the movement retainer ring was plastic which I guess is a sign of the times even in a $2100 watch! The movement finish was average but not rough by any means.

The conventional wisdom has been that one mark on the regulator on a ETA 2824-2 is 5-6 seconds. The owner wanted 1 shot at regulation, replace the back and hope for the best. Since I don't own a Greiner timing machine, I agreed. The watch was gaining 5-6 second per 24 hours so I moved the regulator exactly one mark.

After 2 days the owner says it is now +/- 1 second per 24 and cannot be happier. Sometimes you just luck out! I really don't have any complaints with the SW200 since its performance seems identical to the ETA. If you own a SW200 you can also tell people "Well I have one more jewel than your ETA 2824-2!"
 

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Interesting post and I agree with most of your points. Yes, they do a lot for ETA, yes, they have made ETA movements that are branded ETA and yes, they're for all purposes the same (extra jewel here and there)

Not sure where you got your info on Sellita's ownership though. I haven't been out to see them, but have talked with them at their head office in La Chaux-des-Fonds (home of TAG Heuer). The company is owned by a Spaniard- Miguel Garcia. You can check the ownership here:

Proprietor Sellita Watch Co S.A. - Commercial register and company data
Proprietor Sellita Holding SA - Commercial register and company data

What makes you say that they are a Chinese company?

David
 

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Yesterday I opened up a SW200 for to be regulated. FYI it was a 2010 Aquaracer 300 (WAN2111.BA0822). I noticed the movement retainer ring was plastic which I guess is a sign of the times even in a $2100 watch! The movement finish was average but not rough by any means.

The conventional wisdom has been that one mark on the regulator on a ETA 2824-2 is 5-6 seconds. The owner wanted 1 shot at regulation, replace the back and hope for the best. Since I don't own a Greiner timing machine, I agreed. The watch was gaining 5-6 second per 24 hours so I moved the regulator exactly one mark.

After 2 days the owner says it is now +/- 1 second per 24 and cannot be happier. Sometimes you just luck out! I really don't have any complaints with the SW200 since its performance seems identical to the ETA. If you own a SW200 you can also tell people "Well I have one more jewel than your ETA 2824-2!"
My sw200 was running +24s a day and I was able to regulate it to +2s per day on the first try.

I like to regulate it and let it run overnight crown up (slowest position) until i get -1 or -2s in that position then on my wrist it seems to get very accurate time.

I too was shocked to see a black plastic movement ring in my LINK with an eta2895. My fraction of the price Deep Blue has a pretty metal ring even. I realize plastic probably does the job just fine and keeps the weight down but its nice to see the better quality materials. I also like more weight to my watches.

*update: results are in from my deepblue eta2824 regulation and using my method mentioned above my deep blue went from +20spd to running +0s over 24 hours crown-up(slowest position) and +1s over 12 hours dial-up (fastest position). I expect to get somewhere between 0s to +2s per day accuracy.

**Update 2: its been 24 hours and the freshly regualted watch is running 0s/day. I keep checking the minute hand to see if its correct because i cant believe its doing 0spd.

Anyway i guess my point is either sw200 or eta2824 are capable of great time keeping. Im proud to own both.
 

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