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We should remember that Sellita has sold their cheapest version of the SW200 to the cheapest brands, while the 2824 has been sold in much higher percentages in its more upscale versions to bigger companies with more extensive quality control. It wasn't until five or six years ago that luxury (non-Swatch Group) brands started buying Sellita movements in bulk.

My Sellita-equipped watches have required less repair than my ETA-equipped watches, but I don't own more than one or two watches with standard-grade movements. If a watchmaker has substantive data, we should be able to evaluate what has been going wrong, the relationship to watch-company price point and QC, and any trends over time.

Example: I have heard many American car mechanics of deep experience complain that Toyota and Honda use bolt sizes one size too small for any given task, compared to traditional American carmakers. I happen to hold that view myself, based on (professional) experience from so long ago that it is probably no longer relevant. But Toyotas are still undoubtedly more reliable than those other brands.

And some even deeply experienced mechanics will also have deep-seated opinions about Ford versus Chevy, based as much as anything on what their pappy liked, and will color their own experience with that bias.

There are lots of ETA movements that passed through the Sellita factory, when Sellita was doing mostly contract work for ETA. That doesn't make data any easier to interpret.

Rick "extrapolation causes a lot of Internet FUD" Denney
You make a very good point in para 1; the likelihood is that a typical watch tech will see a greater proportion of cheaper watches containing cheaper movements because in all probability there will be more of these floating about.

However, whilst I don't know a huge amount about movements, but I was under the impression the only differences between lower and higher grade movements is specific components (shock protection; balance wheels and hairsprings etc), and that the rest of it was bog-standard, assembled in the same way to the same tolerances, thus unless failure is in these areas (possible with shock protection I suppose), then there shouldn't be that much difference in reliability, only accuracy.

I didn't have time to explore in detail the areas where Sellitas fail, so I can't comment. If I get the chance I'll do so.
 

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We should remember that Sellita has sold their cheapest version of the SW200 to the cheapest brands, while the 2824 has been sold in much higher percentages in its more upscale versions to bigger companies with more extensive quality control. It wasn't until five or six years ago that luxury (non-Swatch Group) brands started buying Sellita movements in bulk.

My Sellita-equipped watches have required less repair than my ETA-equipped watches, but I don't own more than one or two watches with standard-grade movements. If a watchmaker has substantive data, we should be able to evaluate what has been going wrong, the relationship to watch-company price point and QC, and any trends over time.

Example: I have heard many American car mechanics of deep experience complain that Toyota and Honda use bolt sizes one size too small for any given task, compared to traditional American carmakers. I happen to hold that view myself, based on (professional) experience from so long ago that it is probably no longer relevant. But Toyotas are still undoubtedly more reliable than those other brands.

And some even deeply experienced mechanics will also have deep-seated opinions about Ford versus Chevy, based as much as anything on what their pappy liked, and will color their own experience with that bias.

There are lots of ETA movements that passed through the Sellita factory, when Sellita was doing mostly contract work for ETA. That doesn't make data any easier to interpret.

Rick "extrapolation causes a lot of Internet FUD" Denney
Where did you get all this information on Sellita? I Googled the $#!t out of it and couldn't corroborate any of your information as either fact or fiction. Also, what are the 'cheaper brands' that use Sellita? Thank you for your elaboration ahead of time so I can wrap my head around some of these statements.
 

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Where did you get all this information on Sellita? I Googled the $#!t out of it and couldn't corroborate any of your information as either fact or fiction. Also, what are the 'cheaper brands' that use Sellita? Thank you for your elaboration ahead of time so I can wrap my head around some of these statements.
Better fix your google:

https://www.christopherward.com/etasellitastory.html

Lots of affordables have Sellita inside, starting with some Invicta like model 9937....

https://www.watchuseek.com/f220/sub...nvicta-8926obv2-vs-invicta-9937-a-912474.html

Other affordable Sellita users include C.Ward, Eterna, Oris, Deep Blue....
 

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Better fix your google:

https://www.christopherward.com/etasellitastory.html

Lots of affordables have Sellita inside, starting with some Invicta like model 9937....

https://www.watchuseek.com/f220/sub...nvicta-8926obv2-vs-invicta-9937-a-912474.html

Other affordable Sellita users include C.Ward, Eterna, Oris, Deep Blue....
Nothing in any of those articles said that they are 'cheaper brands' which buy 'cheap sellitas'. No facts to support any of the OP's statements. Just opinions.
 

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Nothing in any of those articles said that they are 'cheaper brands' which buy 'cheap sellitas'. No facts to support any of the OP's statements. Just opinions.
This is one of the basic premises of almost every discussion around here. You are welcome to question it - but you are going to have a different discussion (different than the one in this thread, for sure).
 

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I've become unhappy with Sellita SW200s because of excessive isochronism. The last 10 hours of power reserve can slow down as much as 30 sec. when previously the SW200 was running slightly fast. Nothing scientific mind you, but I haven't experienced this with ETA2824s. And I put all movements through the ringer, 6 positions over 24 hours noting the curve of their accuracy.

AFAIK, Sellita didn't manufacture movements to assemble for ETA, they simply assembled movements ETA gave them. If that's true, I wonder at how fast Sellita got up to speed cloning the 2824, esp. when I've read ETA's fine-tuning of the 2824 over decades resulted from superior use of metallurgy for reliability and longevity, something that can't be easily cloned if you're rushing to market.
 

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btw, this isochronism with SW200 is important to me because I'm not active enough to keep SW200s 75% wind, more like 25% wind, at which point it starts losing seconds precipitously.
 

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The guy I spoke didn't give me any corroboration; simply his opinion based on servicing & repairing watches. Whilst it's possible he has some subjective bias (haven't all of us?), I think it's fair to say he has significantly greater exposure to the reliability issues of various ETA & Sellita movements than those of us on this site not involved in the watch industry professionally; which I imagine is most of us.

It's is most certainly not my intention to ruffle the feathers of those who own watches with Sellita movements; simply to provide another perspective to everybody as a whole, divorced from the machinations of those have most to gain from 'talking-up' their products. The more info we all have, the better, surely? I don't doubt that the likes of Christopher Ward et al would like to reassure us all that Sellita and ETA are equivalent; but then he would wouldn't he ;) BTW, I happen to really like his stuff, particularly the C60 Trident.

I also happen to really like Oris and Sinn; both of whom seem to have bought a job lot of Sellitas before it became apparent that Swatch had decided to rescind their decision to sell to those outside the Group.

Ultimately most sources of information have a level of bias, and it's up to the reader to make their own decision, I personally thought it wise to make I what heard available to all, so please don't shoot the messenger.

I welcome other opinions; I'm not interested in being right; simply on knowing the truth, so far as that is possible . . .
 

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The guy I spoke didn't give me any corroboration; simply his opinion based on servicing & repairing watches. Whilst it's possible he has some subjective bias (haven't all of us?), I think it's fair to say he has significantly greater exposure to the reliability issues of various ETA & Sellita movements than those of us on this site not involved in the watch industry professionally; which I imagine is most of us.
Don't forget though, you're not comparing him to one of us. You are comparing his single experience to the collective of the forum. As a collective I would think our experience is greater.


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Data are good. Opinions, expressed as such and properly bounded and qualified, are fine (though they may be challenged on the basis of those boundaries and qualifiers). Myth and lore does not add to the collective store of useful information--indeed, it subtracts from it.

Rick "careful with boundaries and qualifiers" Denney
 

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Data. Not Lore.

(although I'll quickly acknowledge that a watchmaker has more hands-on experience than I ever will... but also acknowledge that a watchmaker can only know so much about movements he doesn't work on, too)

 

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Don't forget though, you're not comparing him to one of us. You are comparing his single experience to the collective of the forum. As a collective I would think our experience is greater.


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Then perhaps we should define what you mean by 'collective'; if by that you mean members a group who venture opinions on disparate parts of a watch forum (albeit an excellent one I should add), all well and good; but are these collated and presented as hard data; I think not. Ultimately such 'information' will therefore suffer from the same subjective issues as those expounded by the watch repairer himself.
 

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Data are good. Opinions, expressed as such and properly bounded and qualified, are fine (though they may be challenged on the basis of those boundaries and qualifiers). Myth and lore does not add to the collective store of useful information--indeed, it subtracts from it.

Rick "careful with boundaries and qualifiers" Denney
Absolutely, hard data is always preferable . . . However I don't see how the opinion of a guy who spends all day, day in, day out repairing and servicing ETA and Sellita movements can be relegated to the status of 'myth and lore' when it's based on his very real direct experience. No more likely to be myth or lore than your opinion, my opinion, or that of anyone else on here surely? Your personal experience of a movement, for example, can hardly be regarded and myth and lore simply because WE don't have the facts, and have to take your word for it, :) From that perspective his opinion is no less valid that that of any contributor to this site!

As I've all ready intimated, all this is subject to the veracity of what he imparted to me, and for all I know there may be a disparity here, but frankly I doubt it, because . . . whilst as I've already mentioned, there is always the possibility of huge bias on his part for some reason as yet unknown to us, is this really likely to be anything other than informed by his direct experience and therefore completely sound? Ultimately I for one am willing to put my faith in the opinion of somebody with his volume of direct experience, and it will make me think twice about buying a Sellita; that is my personal prerogative of course :)

Opinions not benefiting from such extensive experience will be necessarily less reliable precisely because they have not been informed by such a large data set, and consequently are not as viable, in statistical terms; a bit like the bloke who thinks that, because his Grandad smoked and lived to 90, then smoking must be harmless. . . I think we've all met one of those. . .
 

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Absolutely, hard data is always preferable . . . However I don't see how the opinion of a guy who spends all day, day in, day out repairing and servicing ETA and Sellita movements can be relegated to the status of 'myth and lore' when it's based on his very real direct experience. No more likely to be myth or lore than your opinion, my opinion, or that of anyone else on here surely? Your personal experience of a movement, for example, can hardly be regarded and myth and lore simply because WE don't have the facts, and have to take your word for it, :) From that perspective his opinion is no less valid that that of any contributor to this site!

As I've all ready intimated, all this is subject to the veracity of what he imparted to me, and for all I know there may be a disparity here, but frankly I doubt it, because . . . whilst as I've already mentioned, there is always the possibility of huge bias on his part for some reason as yet unknown to us, is this really likely to be anything other than informed by his direct experience and therefore completely sound? Ultimately I for one am willing to put my faith in the opinion of somebody with his volume of direct experience, and it will make me think twice about buying a Sellita; that is my personal prerogative of course :)

Opinions not benefiting from such extensive experience will be necessarily less reliable precisely because they have not been informed by such a large data set, and consequently are not as viable, in statistical terms; a bit like the bloke who thinks that, because his Grandad smoked and lived to 90, then smoking must be harmless. . . I think we've all met one of those. . .
I never said his opinions were myth and lore. I said they were opinions subject to boundaries and qualifiers, like all poorly evidenced opinions.

Myth and lore is what happens when unbounded and unqualified opinion is spread by the unknowing on forums on the basis of the presumed credentials of the source, and eventually solely on the basis of repetition.

Not all myth and lore is false, of course, but it is all unreliable.

Rick "photographs of specific failures and their contexts would be data" Denney
 

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Then perhaps we should define what you mean by 'collective'; if by that you mean members a group who venture opinions on disparate parts of a watch forum (albeit an excellent one I should add), all well and good; but are these collated and presented as hard data; I think not. Ultimately such 'information' will therefore suffer from the same subjective issues as those expounded by the watch repairer himself.
Agreed. Just a collection of non imperical data. Much as the OP was. Nevertheless given they are both the same I would back multiple people's direct experience over a single persons. Also as a forum we are being asked as end users generally. No one's post carries with it a CV of their actual knowledge, while its also clear that some posts are more like football supporters who blindly follow their brand and can't see clearly.


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