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A local watch repair person might see less expensive watches overall. This could skew their data.
True, but in this case the company he works specialises in, and carries the contracts for warranty work for, many important Swiss brands. I don't want to say who in open forum, because I really don't want anything rebounding on him after his candour in telling me his opinion.
 

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Rdenney;43641647[B said:
]I never said his opinions were myth and lore[/B]. I said they were opinions subject to boundaries and qualifiers, like all poorly evidenced opinions.

Myth and lore is what happens when unbounded and unqualified opinion is spread by the unknowing on forums on the basis of the presumed credentials of the source, and eventually solely on the basis of repetition.

Not all myth and lore is false, of course, but it is all unreliable.

Rick "photographs of specific failures and their contexts would be data" Denney
Then profound apologies for misconstruing what you said
 

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Agreed. Just a collection of non imperical data. Much as the OP was. Nevertheless given they are both the same I would back multiple people's direct experience over a single persons. Also as a forum we are being asked as end users generally. No one's post carries with it a CV of their actual knowledge, while its also clear that some posts are more like football supporters who blindly follow their brand and can't see clearly.


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I agree, but can't help feeling that is a good thing that all that experience goes through the one person, I think there are many issues with forming an opinion based trusting what you (not specifically you, I mean all of us) might read on a site, even one as excellent as this one (and I do mean that, in my opinion it is currently the best watch forum in existence), for example:

1) Many of us are watch enthusiasts, constantly flipping watches to make way for new stuff, thus often not owning any particular watch for long enough for issues to become apparent, it's often someone else's problem by then, although conversely many of us buy more expensive brands used, which may count in the other direction . . . Therefore data by retail cost may become skewed too

2) Someone made the point about the average quality level of watch a watch repairer might see; same goes for us on here, there will be far more commentary on low to mid tire (Steinhart's up to Glycine say), than higher end (IWC containing modified ETAs rather than in-house, as some of them do) resulting in a similar effect to point 1) above, at least potentially.

3) Data is generally skewed by psychology; people being far more likely to hit the keyboard to report an negative experience than a positive one. Ultimately we don't know how many people there are who are happy with a given watch, we are more likely to hear from those with a negative experience!

4) This is a big site; how much info do people miss, even if rigorously pursuing an interest in movement reliability? Posts constantly being made in different threads dotted all over the shop

5) Many of us have modest (some more immodest than others!) collections, resulting in watches not getting as much wrist time as those being worn by people who arn't members of a forum like this. This can result in reliability issues not becoming manifest, since 'mean time between failures' is always going to be a function of, inter-alia ,wrist-hours. Although It's also true that wearing the same watch all the time reduces the failure rate per unit time it's operating of course; watches don't like sitting idle, lubricants thicken etc

I take your point, but can't help feeling that all that experience filtered through one bloke leads to a more balanced view of the situation, rather than the necessarily more piece-meal experience of forum members. Don't get me wrong, I think member contributions are very valuable and very interesting too, otherwise I wouldn't be on here :)
 

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True, but in this case the company he works specialises in, and carries the contracts for warranty work for, many important Swiss brands. I don't want to say who in open forum, because I really don't want anything rebounding on him after his candour in telling me his opinion.
Fair enough. There are some self-selection things going on there, even with the most reputable of repair techs. For example, if I am an authorized Swatch Group repair center, I will see many ETA-powered watches that are in for routine service. But I might only see a Sellita movement from walk-in customers when they are broken. That will influence the percentage of each that I see that need parts. Also, watches at lower price points are not routinely serviced as are watches at higher price points, also increasing the percentage that come in broken versus just needing routine servicing.

Someone mentioned metallurgy. I would be surprised if Sellita uses weaker metals than ETA, but evidence of that would require some kind of testing, or at least analysis of failures that have occurred, beyond the unexplained and unevidenced statement, "I've seen a lot of failed parts." Which parts? What kinds of failures? Under what conditions? There were reports from Sellita's early days about barrel gears, as I recall (maybe incorrectly), and those persist in myth and lore, despite many other reports that Sellita corrected the problem years ago.

Repair techs are not statisticians, and are subject to sampling bias as much as anyone.

Just look at the opinions that have been rendered about Rolex movements over the years--they range widely despite being from techs who all have deep experience. Example: Rolex's use of a pin bearing for the rotor (versus an ETA-style ball bearing) has received criticism as being wear-prone. There are pictures of the wear, plus pictures of the rotor's rub marks in the movement that occur when that bearing gets sloppy, in some of those reviews. But we still don't really know how common those problems really are, and they are countered by thousands of friend-of-a-friend stories of Rolexes that work perfectly after 40 years without service.

But this is fact: Swatch Group has stated for years their intention to restrict the supply of ETA movements, reserving them only for companies in the group. Sellita is one of the very few alternatives. If we like companies that produce unique and interesting designs but don't have their own movement factories, we will at some point have to rally behind Sellita and other companies like it. Hearing people opine on the basis of poor evidence that Sellita is no good plays into Swatch's anti-competitive strategies.

Rick "also biased" Denney
 
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Fair enough. There are some self-selection things going on there, even with the most reputable of repair techs. For example, if I am an authorized Swatch Group repair center, I will see many ETA-powered watches that are in for routine service. But I might only see a Sellita movement from walk-in customers when they are broken. That will influence the percentage of each that I see that need parts. Also, watches at lower price points are not routinely serviced as are watches at higher price points, also increasing the percentage that come in broken versus just needing routine servicing.

Someone mentioned metallurgy. I would be surprised if Sellita uses weaker metals than ETA, but evidence of that would require some kind of testing, or at least analysis of failures that have occurred, beyond the unexplained and unevidenced statement, "I've seen a lot of failed parts." Which parts? What kinds of failures? Under what conditions? There were reports from Sellita's early days about barrel gears, as I recall (maybe incorrectly), and those persist in myth and lore, despite many other reports that Sellita corrected the problem years ago.

Repair techs are not statisticians, and are subject to sampling bias as much as anyone.

Just look at the opinions that have been rendered about Rolex movements over the years--they range widely despite being from techs who all have deep experience. Example: Rolex's use of a pin bearing for the rotor (versus an ETA-style ball bearing) has received criticism as being wear-prone. There are pictures of the wear, plus pictures of the rotor's rub marks in the movement that occur when that bearing gets sloppy, in some of those reviews. But we still don't really know how common those problems really are, and they are countered by thousands of friend-of-a-friend stories of Rolexes that work perfectly after 40 years without service.

But this is fact: Swatch Group has stated for years their intention to restrict the supply of ETA movements, reserving them only for companies in the group. Sellita is one of the very few alternatives. If we like companies that produce unique and interesting designs but don't have their own movement factories, we will at some point have to rally behind Sellita and other companies like it. Hearing people opine on the basis of poor evidence that Sellita is no good plays into Swatch's anti-competitive strategies.

Rick "also biased" Denney
True, but might a repairer just as likely see many Sellitas for service and ETAs only when they break down? Maybe your presumption is that a repairer might see higher grade ETAs for service and lower grade Sellitas only when they become U/S? After all, it would be all to easy to assume that owners of higher-end watches are more assiduous about getting their watches serviced, whilst owners of less expensive watches only bother seeing a tech when their watch breaks down entirely. Comparing apples with oranges will skew results; I think we should be careful with our assumptions.

The general thrust of what I have been saying over the last few posts is that a tech's opinion about movement reliability is no less valid than members opinions on this forum and therefore worthwhile delineating, for reasons I have already stated. I think we've flogged this to death ad nauseam now, so I'm not going to post any further on the matter in this thread, as I think this will go on and on.

I shall continue post any further opinions I hear, from whomever, on this subject; forum members can use their own critical faculties to sort the wheat from the chaff. :)

Very interesting info on Rolex BTW, I didn't know that.

Regards

Adrian (just as biased as the rest) Braham
 

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I own five automatic watches with the following movements:

Seiko 4R36
Seiko 6R15
Oris 733 (Selita SW 200-1)
ETA 2834-2



I have to say that each movement has let me down in small ways and also performed fantastically at other times. I think that it's also hard to come to any kind of a conclusion based on a small sample of the watches in any of our relatively small collections. And when you factor in that many of us get watches on the pre-owned or gray market, it makes the comparisons even less relevant. For example, I bought my selita new from an AD... and it has performed as well as +2 a day for weeks, and then suddenly jumped up to +7, and then ended up back down at +2 later. The ETA movement I have was bought on the gray market, and it had consistent +5 performance for three years... when suddenly it jumped up to +15 and would not hand wind... so it is obviously in need of a service. But what happened to that ETA while in the hands of the gray market? How long was it sitting around? Was it handled a lot and then allowed to wind down every day? Who knows? I certainly don't, and I wouldn't want to make a judgement between the selita or the ETA just based on my experience.


So far, I'm happy with my selita movement. I wouldn't hesitate to buy another Selita, or another ETA. Or any of the Seiko movements either....
 

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Wow, I just read this entire thread from 2010 until now...2018...wth is wrong with my life!

let me summarize the absolute chaos going on to date...

intially, 8 years ago, there was a simple question asked...Sellita (or Setilla as some geniuses posted it for months!) or ETA?
then some Setilla speller accused Sellita of being a Chinese knock off, this unfounded accusation went on for literally years...the sad part was, on about page 2 or 3 of the comments, the ownership of Sellita was provided and shown to be GENUINE Swiss. But that didn’t slow down the Chinese company accusations one iota, no, nope, no way..they went on for 5 years as though the evidence to the contrary was ever shown..it was..it’s a f’n Swiss company...period. And I would be remiss if I failed to credit Rick “I got photos” Denny of stating on NUMEROUS OCCASIONS he has the physical evidence.

then we had some voices of sanity that REMINDED EVERYBODY WHO CAN READ ENGLISH...that ETA and Sellita started with a working relationship, even as Sellita initially made its own movements. We learned that Sellita reengineeredthe ETA 2824-2 movement and added a 26th jewel. Then some pretty good personal experience stories with the ETA and Sellita movements ensued...all pretty much stated on balance they were about the same overall...each having its own unique quirks.

then we had numerous horological articles posted that outright stated no appreciable differences between the ETA vs Sellita movements...and I do mean numerous...I don’t think any but three (counting me) actually read them, as nonsense comments continued directly refuted by the FACTS provided..now that’s a forum normale!

Then in the last last two years a kind of a children on the playground dispute about the Borg and assimilation into the collective ensued...and I’m just sitting here mumbling the obvious to myself...which I know a few others here are as well:

ITS BEEN 8 YEARS ON THIS STRING, SELLITA MOVEMENTS HAVE PROVED THEMSELVES, WATCHES HAVING THEM ARE NOT EXPLODING, MANUFACTURERS ARE IN FACT USING THEM, AND THEY ARE EXPANDING....HISTORY HAS KILLED THE NAY SAYERS, SELLITA IS THE NEW ETA
 

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Pretty much sums it up.

Another personal anectdote... i own both an ETA and a Selitta, and both have run very well, at COSC, at various times over the years. I have no lroblem or hesitation buying either.

Seiko’s movements, however.....
 

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Love it, just read all this. Sellita ETA....really all the same thing.
 

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Love it, just read all this. Sellita ETA....really all the same thing.
No need to read the thread to know that Selita is Swiss and virtually the same as ETA. Most numb nuts wouldn't be able to pick the difference with branding removed. But then like everyone else, some people are just so freekin stupid.


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Good enough for these clients of Sellita - Invicta, Eterna, Bell & Ross, Deep Blue, Sinn, Bulova, Breitling, Jean Richard, Tag Heuer, Aristo, Gruman, Alpina, Oris, Marathon, Chronoswiss, TAWATEC, Christopher Ward, Ocean7, Zelos, IWC, Montblanc, Doxa, Muhle Glashutte, Louis Erard, Baume & Mercier, Frederique Constant, and Marcello C, then good enough for little old me. Just sayin'. For those who present opinion, I welcome it, but if you wish to sway me, don't present opinion without fact.

Some references for the 'facts' - https://www.grumanwatches.com/blogs/discover/the-movements, https://www.watch-wiki.net/index.php?title=Sellita, https://www.watch-wiki.net/index.php?title=SW_220, Watches in Depth - Movement Calibres - The Baily Blog, https://www.ablogtowatch.com/zelos-abyss-2-dive-watch/, https://www.ablogtowatch.com/iwc-da-vinci-automatic-edition-150-years-watch-2018/, https://www.ablogtowatch.com/montbl...-chronograph-manufacture-chronograph-watches/, ad nauseam, ad infinitum
 

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I've been reading this thread with interest for a month or so as I was planning to replace my 2010 Breitling that used an ETA movement with a watch with an SW200 movement. Having now owned that watch - a Mühle Terrasport III - for 10 days, I can report that it's religiously gaining 2 seconds a day, which is actually slightly better than the more expensive ETA powered Colt it replaced. It's early days, but so far I'm very impressed by both Mühle and Sellita.
 

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It all comes down to the effort made during regulation.
I've been reading this thread with interest for a month or so as I was planning to replace my 2010 Breitling that used an ETA movement with a watch with an SW200 movement. Having now owned that watch - a Mühle Terrasport III - for 10 days, I can report that it's religiously gaining 2 seconds a day, which is actually slightly better than the more expensive ETA powered Colt it replaced. It's early days, but so far I'm very impressed by both Mühle and Sellita.
 
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