WatchUSeek Watch Forums banner

1 - 20 of 34 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,819 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Hi ladies,

India is known for old watches with rotten cases and movements, a gaudi colored dial with a print inspired by any famous model from any brand. E.g. the Omega Ranchero is avalable with every brand (including Omega) and every color (inclouding black).

I've now and then posted here, that among this trash sometimes amazing gems show up. Moreover I search since long for Ricoh movements, to get them the first time into any archive - mine in this case. But for this purpose one can't pass India. And finally I noticed: They exist, the samples without corrosion damage, with untouched original dial, and well running movement. One needs to search long, but finally is rewarded with a ridiculous price, since already the origin country keeps most serious bidders away, while newbies bid the same diisregarding condition.

And here is the reason to become happy:



Maybe a bit over-polished, but I don't know how it actually should look. Crisp dial, and even a day display im matching color.



Smooth gasket seat without the typical appearance of the Grand Canyon, lugs without deep grooves and with still defined contours. And the movement needed just a fitting crown, some adjustment to the hairspring, and a third screw for the rotor post - peanuts compared with the average (even outside India).

Here the archive entry for the movement with an interesting detail:
bidfun-db Archive: Watch Movements: Ricoh Auto

If you have time enough, it may be worth while to study items from India. A good approach may be to browse all offers from a seller. This one for instance clearly stated which dials are original, and which are redials, and after my oppinion he was always right, although most dials were well above Mumbai standard.

Regards, Roland Ranfft
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,428 Posts
Hi ladies,

India is known for old watches with rotten cases and movements, a gaudi colored dial with a print inspired by any famous model from any brand.
Regards, Roland Ranfft
Hi Roland - with respect.
It is also known for great things - like Mahatma Gandhi
other great achievements are in India, like The Taj Mahal
Welcome To Official WebSite of Taj Mahal-U.P.Tourism

Just as we are not all "ladies" here neither is India only "rotten watches"

I am glad you may learn that with your latest acquisition

Sincerely
adam
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,632 Posts
Gratulation Roland,
a hard chase through climate-related decomposed watches, but hit the mark. For my person I can say that I bought two email pocket watches until now in india and the happyness was the same. Very friendly communication and top reserved orginal watches. I guess the main problem is the way many india people think. The climate "eats" the metal diasl and they do their best to get nice looking watches back. CRazy freaks who want ugly old stuff.

Be Happy :) ..kind regards Silke
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
4,045 Posts
Very similar to a Seiko/Orient, isn't it?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,997 Posts
Hi Roland ,
Well done on your successful search . I bought a Benrus from India for my son. Naturally it was a redial but that watch is solid. He often takes the back off just to watch the balance play. For only $10.00 so great value. I do look at some of their sellers and would buy from India again but as always ... caveat emptor.
Regards,
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,819 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
Hi Adam,

It is also known for great things - like Mahatma Gandhi
Could you have had a rather sensitive egg for breakfast?

This is a watch forum, and nobody argues that Swiss bank business degrades watch industry to peanuts. It is a fact that the India old-watch business is dominated by funky cadavers. What I wanted to point out (by far not the first time) is: Click further if you meet such trash, but don't click further if you read India as origin.

I even don't blame the sellers of such stuff. The majority clearly describe what they sell, recycle what they get for cheap in huge quantities, and supply an obvious demand. People have the right to love these gaudy things, but should consider that rust doesn't stop if it reaches gears an pivots.

On the other hand, air conditioned bureaus are not unknown in India, and together with the huge population this guaranties that a reasonable quantity of watches age in honors. And if you focus to less known Japanese brands, or some Swiss makers who had good connections to this big market, you can't miss out this source.

Regards, Roland Ranfft

(.... still hoping that his home country is not reduced to trash separation and an imported psychopath with tiny drop catcher under his nose)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
994 Posts
How did this one escape without improvements? Heads are going to roll........


On a serious note, I read on another thread that in the past (mostly in the US) it was common to have one's watch redialed to make it look new with minimum expense. Not sure how accurate this information is but this would be the thought behind the gaudy watches that come out of here. Of course, there are those lured by quick profits as well.
 

·
Mod. Russian, China Mech.
Joined
·
18,200 Posts
For those who are interested in Ricoh watches and looking at Indian auctions, it is worth noting that the majority on offer are hand-winding models which seem to be made in India with Japanese movement parts, whereas the automatics are probably imported from Japan. I might be misunderstanding the general situation, and certainly not making a value judgement between the two, but I thought it was worth pointing out to the curious. The idea of an India-only model of a Japanese brand is quite appealing to me so some reason.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,784 Posts
(...) But, don't worry, I think the world has more or less forgotten.
Oh, has it? I don't think so...

Anyway - back to Ricohs. Roland, you could have asked me - two Automatics with (I believe) the Ricoh cal. 61:

UhrForum Member Stepi said:
Ricoh's cal. 61 came out in 1970, with a monometallic rotor and big holes in the wheels of the winding train. Later the rotor was replaced by one with a heavy metal rim. The slit next to the hub was meant to keep shocks from the rotor bearing, or so at least they hoped in the 1970s.
The cal 61 was the only one with 21 jewels, the 31, 38, 40 and 41 had 25. All ran at 18,000 bpm. The family was complemented in 1975 with the 21,600 bpm cal. 251, available with 17 or 22 jewels.

'Ricoh' branded watches exist since 1962. Originally the 1899-founded 'Takano Seimitsu Kogyo Co' of Nagoya, Japan, did it enter a joint venture with Hamilton to produce wristwatches. As of 1962 the joint company was named 'Hamilton-Ricoh Watch Co'.

(...)

The joint venture with Hamilton broke up in the early 1970s and Ricoh continued to produce mechanical watches under their own brand until the end of the 1980s.
The guy, by the way, is the UhrForum's resident expert on Ricoh watches - he actually collects them.

A funny aside is that after Seiko called their entry-level watches "5" and Citizen "7", Ricoh named their's - most appropriately - "9".

Best,
Tomcat
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
597 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,819 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
Hi Tomcat,

Anyway - back to Ricohs. Roland, you could have asked me - two Automatics with (I believe) the Ricoh cal. 61
I tend to believe it also, but only because the Ronda staff list from 1974 contains a Ricoh 61. And as Ronda was second source for staffs they should have had certain informations. But Ronda gives no information what the Ricoh 61 actully is. And as these movements are not signed, nobody knows.

The guy, by the way, is the UhrForum's resident expert on Ricoh watches - he actually collects them.
Sorry, droping tons of dial pics into a forum makes him just an upload expert. Sometimes he drops the remark that a watch has an "R61" movement, but never confirmed it with a movement pic (I suspect he never saw one).

This one was my first Ricoh movement, and it is interesting. The unique lever and an own shock device are things you'll not meet in a Patek Philippe or Rolex. And therefore I could understand if someone specialises to these underdogs. But funky designs were pretty common in the 70s, and why shoud one restrict this to Ricoh?

Anyway, I don't feel responsible to investigate unknown assignments of designations to movements. So I'll leave it as "Ricoh Auto" unless I find better informations from serious sources by accident. The movement is recorded with its data and features, and this must do. Moreover it is presently the only from Ricoh, and therefore needs no designation.

Regards, Roland Ranfft
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
18,167 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,784 Posts
(...)But Ronda gives no information what the Ricoh 61 actully is. And as these movements are not signed, nobody knows.
(...)


(...)So I'll leave it as "Ricoh Auto" unless I find better informations from serious sources by accident. The movement is recorded with its data and features, and this must do. Moreover it is presently the only from Ricoh, and therefore needs no designation.
(...)

I would like to point you to Heinz Hampel, 'Automatik-Armbanduhren aus Deutschland, England, Frankreich, Japan, Rußland, USA', Callwey Verlag, München 1996, pp 140 ff.:


Heinz Hampel said:
By the end of the 1960s Ricoh presented their only automatic movements for gents' and ladies' watches. While the gents' automatic movement ('cal. 61') is powered by a ball-bearing supported rotor winding the watch in both directions through a rocking-bar reverser, the ladies' automatic ('cal. 251') sports an idling reverser using GP's 'Gyromatic' patent.


Neither the automatic group nor the base movement of either construction show peculiarities - they were state-of-the-art products for economic standard (entry level) watches (...).

In the details for the 61 he specifies a 'side pallet fork', whatever that is :)

According to Hampel the 61 was available from 1970, the 251 from 1975. The 251 seems to have been the more modern calibre, ticking at 21,600 bpm.


Best,
Tomcat
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
597 Posts
Words to the wise: knock it off, please. Your cooperation is appreciated.
Apologies! My comment was tongue in cheek as Roland's original post was also tongue in cheek but Horologist took it so seriously. I was merely trying to break Horologist's serious air with a wise crack. ;-)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,819 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
Hi Tomcat,

In the details for the 61 he specifies a 'side pallet fork', whatever that is :)
French people have it easier: Depending whether the bearings of balance, lever, and escape wheel are arranged in a line or an angle, they call it "ligne droit" or "ligne angulaire" respectively. In English or German I read lots of differing terms, all humble attempts to characterise this difference. "Side pallet fork" is just a literal translation of the German "Seitenanker", thus as useless as most of these terms.

Anyway, the (fist and only) Ricoh automatic im my archive has such a straight lever, in principle that what was common in old English watches:



And it is kind of unique, because banking is done by one pin in a hole.

Unfortunately, I've lend my Hampel to someone, and don't remember whom. But I suspect that the Ricoh movements are just mentoned and not illustrated, because this is already much more than the usual attention authors pay to unimportant brands. So we are precisely as wise as before.

Regards, Roland Ranfft
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,784 Posts
(...) Unfortunately, I've lend my Hampel to someone, and don't remember whom. But I suspect that the Ricoh movements are just mentoned and not illustrated, because this is already much more than the usual attention authors pay to unimportant brands. So we are precisely as wise as before.
With compliments ;-):

cal. 61:





cal. 251:





So 'straight lever' is the correct term? Thank you! ;-)

Best,
Tomcat
 
1 - 20 of 34 Posts
Top