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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Hello Comrades, I would be hugely grateful if you the experts could chime in for me and let me know the dial signatures, and critique these two pieces...

Watch 1







And watch 2





Thank you!
 

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The first one appears to have an odd factory logo - could you provide a close-up? There should be an ordinary 1GChZ logo, and maybe there is, but I can't see well..
The second one seems to have a correct balance wheel - it's not bi-metallic, if that what's Lol means... It's monometallic with brass screws, apparently.
Or maybe there is something I'm missing this time ;)
As for the second one - it has a weird combination of wristwatch case and hands' style with pocket watch dial. Though I'm unsure if it's incorrect, or not - too few sources to be sure about many things that can be found in Soviet pre-WW2 watches...

As for the hands themselves, I think they might have been replaced - way too nice and 'subtle' for a K-43 ;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
The first one appears to have an odd factory logo - could you provide a close-up? There should be an ordinary 1GChZ logo, and maybe there is, but I can't see well..
The second one seems to have a correct balance wheel - it's not bi-metallic, if that what's Lol means... It's monometallic with brass screws, apparently.
Or maybe there is something I'm missing this time ;)
As for the second one - it has a weird combination of wristwatch case and hands' style with pocket watch dial. Though I'm unsure if it's incorrect, or not - too few sources to be sure about many things that can be found in Soviet pre-WW2 watches...

As for the hands themselves, I think they might have been replaced - way too nice and 'subtle' for a K-43 ;)
A very interesting conversation gents - thank you! Here's the clearest image of the logo I have...
 

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Guess we'll have to wait for better pictures, 'cause that one for sure is a very odd logo... :think:

I also suspect that the 2 big wheels could actually have been switched with a pair originally belonging to 2MWF's movements... until not so long ago it was just a theory that I was elaborating by observing several examples seen online, but now that the 1934 and 1940 catalogs have appeared I think there are proofs to support it.

Sorry but it's too late for me now, I'll try to explain it better tomorrow. ;-)
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Guess we'll have to wait for better pictures, 'cause that one for sure is a very odd logo... :think:

I also suspect that the 2 big wheels could actually have been switched with a pair originally belonging to 2MWF's movements... until not so long ago it was just a theory that I was elaborating by observing several examples seen online, but now that the 1934 and 1940 catalogs have appeared I think there are proofs to support it.

Sorry but it's too late for me now, I'll try to explain it better tomorrow. ;-)
Thank you very much Comrade Straight_Time - that is hugely interesting. I look forward to your further explanation; however I don't think there are going to be any better pictures forthcoming - as with the price these pieces are selling for I think I will decide not to buy them - especially as the condition they are in is not all that great.

Thank you again gentlemen - I'm very grateful!
 

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Guess we'll have to wait for better pictures, 'cause that one for sure is a very odd logo... :think:

I also suspect that the 2 big wheels could actually have been switched with a pair originally belonging to 2MWF's movements... until not so long ago it was just a theory that I was elaborating by observing several examples seen online, but now that the 1934 and 1940 catalogs have appeared I think there are proofs to support it.

Sorry but it's too late for me now, I'll try to explain it better tomorrow. ;-)
I Know exactly what you mean:

2MWF - Factory 53 - Chistopol, have Excavated wheels:




1MWF, Plain Wheels:


 

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The silver cap jewel setting seems incorrect for 2mwf, but the balance cock as whole is 2mwf or Chistopol, not 1mwf.
The winding gears look like 2mwf ones indeed...
 

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I Know exactly what you mean
:-!

As said, at first it was only my guess, but I feel more confident after having discovered these:







Even though the 1st SWF movement shown on the 1940 catalog dates 3 years earlier, I believe we can conclude that
at least until both factories were moved from Moscow, these should be considered the "standard" configurations.
I can see no reason why any of the two factories should have modified the assembly line or changed their machines, and there are too many watches that clearly look unmolested that support the previous assumption.

On a side note, inspired by the excellent job done by Comrade Polmax in this hugely informative thread I have done a little study myself, and comparing movements produced by the two factories I noticed differences in shape/design of several parts; knowing this could be very useful to easily identify at first sight where a certain movement came from, when there are no markings on the main bridge (e.g. war years).
I'm working on a detailed post (or thread) but I'll need a little time to complete it, so please be patient.

About "53" movements, I wouldn't be 100% sure anymore, instead, that they used the "grooved/excavated" wheels only.

When I still thought that it was located in the Urals and only used machinery coming from the 2ndWF, it seemed to me the only possible solution.

After this thread defined beyond any doubt that Factory 853 was in Moscow, and also that (unless I have misunderstood a few posts) it had been re-established using equipments coming back from BOTH Chistopol AND Zlatoust (where the 1stSWF had been moved to) I suspect that the watches with "53" logo that we see in this other thread, which show pairs of both types of wheels, could actually be originals.


(this one's for mroatman)

(...and this one, too)



 

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:-!

As said, at first it was only my guess, but I feel more confident after having discovered these:







Even though the 1st SWF movement shown on the 1940 catalog dates 3 years earlier, I believe we can conclude that
at least until both factories were moved from Moscow, these should be considered the "standard" configurations.
I can see no reason why any of the two factories should have modified the assembly line or changed their machines, and there are too many watches that clearly look unmolested that support the previous assumption.

On a side note, inspired by the excellent job done by Comrade Polmax in this hugely informative thread I have done a little study myself, and comparing movements produced by the two factories I noticed differences in shape/design of several parts; knowing this could be very useful to easily identify at first sight where a certain movement came from, when there are no markings on the main bridge (e.g. war years).
I'm working on a detailed post (or thread) but I'll need a little time to complete it, so please be patient.

About "53" movements, I wouldn't be 100% sure anymore, instead, that they used the "grooved/excavated" wheels only.

When I still thought that it was located in the Urals and only used machinery coming from the 2ndWF, it seemed to me the only possible solution.

After this thread defined beyond any doubt that Factory 853 was in Moscow, and also that (unless I have misunderstood a few posts) it had been re-established using equipments coming back from BOTH Chistopol AND Zlatoust (where the 1stSWF had been moved to) I suspect that the watches with "53" logo that we see in this other thread, which show pairs of both types of wheels, could actually be originals.


(this one's for mroatman)

(...and this one, too)

Very good information, some remarks.

1 Factory 53 seems to be 2MWF and has in fact the two types of wheels.
2 1MWF after 1939 have changed the bolting from top to bottom.
3 1950's Zlatoust has the same grooved wheels.
 

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Lol965 said:
Very good information, some remarks.

1 Factory 53 seems to be 2MWF and has in fact the two types of wheels.
2 1MWF after 1939 have changed the bolting from top to bottom.
3 1950's Zlatoust has the same grooved wheels.
Thanks for the appreciation :)

1
Yes, that's what I'm saying.
A mix of parts (for repair/maintenance/frankenization) is always possible on any watch in any moment of its life, but if 853 ("53") had been in Chistopol, it would have been then logical to assume that its production had been made exclusively with equipments coming from Moscow -that is, originally with grooved-wheels only.
Since it's now clear that 853 (in Moscow) received equipments originally belonging to both formers 2ndWF and 1stSWF, my guess is that the plain wheels mounted on some examples could be legitimate, and not a later substitution.

2
Well, I've read this repeated many times, but after Comrade Okeah questioned "Are we sure that 3 means Z?" (and you know what that innocent question brought :-d ) I'd really like to know the source of this information. I mean, do we have any technical drawing, a data sheet, anything like that?

Please have a look at Comrade Adams' pictures in the very first post of this thread: I see what appears to be an unmolested movement (balance bridge shows a finishing which matches with those of others bridges).
So I ask myself: when exactly would that change from bottom-down to bottom-up have occurred, if we have a very likely original example dated 4th quarter of 1939 which still is bottom-down?

To date, we can undoubtely affirm that in 3-37 screws are "bottom down": the 1940 catalog proves it.
But it appeared just a few months ago, and we can be 100% sure of it only since then; what gives us the same certainity about the 1939 switch?

3
I wanted to stay focused on 1stSWF and 2ndWF/853 factories only, analyzing also Zlatoust and Chistopol here would be too confusing IMHO. ;-)
 
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