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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
So I won an auction for an overhauled black dial 6146-8000 61GS, the model that has recently piqued my interest and become a piece I had to own. The ad stated that the movement was completely overhauled, case and dial cleaned, etc. The watch looks fantastic but of course there are multiple issues with it.

For one, it will not hack or hand wind, neither function is working. I cannot set the day of the week through the crown, and the date changes even when the crown is closed. Talk about "overhauled"....o|

Now, the seller I bought this from has near 100% feedback and appears to be a watch shop based in Japan. Do you guys think it sounds like it may have been damaged in shipping? The watch is technically running and keeping time reasonably well, maybe that's all the wording of the ad actually promised - although stating the watch was just overhauled to me implies a full service and in full working order. But what do I know. :think:

So dilemma; do I ship it back to the seller to have them fix, rolling the dice they're even capable of fixing it? I have a watch guy near me that can work on vintage Seiko's, but he mentioned he wouldn't be able to source parts for this movement if anything was straight broken. Do I try my luck with the Nj service center which did a horrible job with my King Seiko a few years back? Or do I just force a return and cut my losses?

I'd really like to keep this one, but for the money I paid I'm not sure I'm prepared to go through an ordeal of trying to fix what may have been unscrupulously "repaired" previously.

What do you guys think? I know specs and models and history, but I really know nothing about vintage movements and technical stuff like this. bWPfmCU.jpg
 
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I would contact the seller and see what he says before panicking. In my experience an eBay seller with near perfect ratings will bend over backwards to keep it that way. The guy who sold me my SRP779 shipped me paid $20+ to ship it Priority Express mail to make up for shipping delays and his supplier did the same when I had issues and they had delays sending me a replacement. There's no way they made money on this transaction given the selling cost+shipping, but that was the cost of preserving their reputation which is everything on eBay. I myself have taken a bath on shipping or refunding an item to make sure my customer was happy and my 100% rating remained untarnished.
 

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A pity, the watch looks like a beauty. It would be unusual for a Japanese dealer to sell a watch and not to fully/truly disclose any problems the watch may have (at least that has been my experience).

If you feel the watch is really faulty, contact the seller and using a diplomatic turn of phrase ask that the situation be rectified or arrange for a return and a refund.

In dealing with a Japanese company, Tact will often receive a positive response but bluster and combativeness will usually not end very cleanly. Just my 2 yen.
 

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... For one, it will not hack or hand wind, neither function is working. I cannot set the day of the week through the crown, and the date changes even when the crown is closed. ...
Sounds like a stem or keyless works issue. Do you still fell the crown pull to the first and then to the second position? The hands set in the second position?

... Do you guys think it sounds like it may have been damaged in shipping?
It's possible, but assuming there was no damage on the packaging as it arrived, your guess would be as good as anybodies.

The watch is technically running and keeping time reasonably well, maybe that's all the wording of the ad actually promised - although stating the watch was just overhauled to me implies a full service and in full working order. But what do I know.
It does imply that. Also, and I know this is me generalizing quite a bit, the Japanese sellers I've encountered tend to be precise when it comes to describing any present faults. What I'm careful about is the translation and their command of the English language. I often see descriptions that need creative deciphering to reveal their intended meaning.

How well is keeping the time reasonably well? Do you have an option of putting it on a timegrapher?

I'm asking because these movements, when serviced and in good shape, are capable of performing within or at least somewhat close to their factory spec, even after all these years.

So dilemma; ...
Well, you have several options, some better than others. At this point, I'd contact the seller, politely explain the issue and than take the response into consideration, along with the other possibilities, while also having the watch inspected by a trustworthy watchmaker locally at the same time.
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
The seller's verbatim response to my inquiry; "This model did not have the Quick Date Function. The 61GS is also available." Are they implying this isn't a 61GS?

But what about the ability to hack or hand wind the movement? Can any of you resident experts confirm that this watch is supposed to be hacking and hand windable? Based on what I could find online, it should.
 

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Reading a few reviews, it appears that it should have hacking and quickset date. To adjust the day, you're supposed to repeatedly cross the date change threshold time (ie forward to snap to the next day, then reverse back and repeat until the correct day appears).
I couldn't find a review where it mentions hand-winding.
 

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This model has hack, manual wind and quickset for date and day. I would send it back, I presume fixing won't be cheap and you might need parts that are very hard to find. Or at least ask for a partial refund.
 

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The Seiko 6146 movement has both hacking and hand-winding. It hand-winds with the crown in its base position (fully pushed in), date is set when the crown is pulled out to the 1st position and the time is set when the crown is pulled to the 2nd position. The 2nd position engages the hacking too, so the seconds hand stops.

As for the day of the week... this is when things become a little odd for me... I own a 6145-8000 (with a quick set date) and I always assumed that its close sibling, the 6146, has both quick set date and day... and if you'd now ask me for the reason for this assumption of mine, I wouldn't be able to explain. Knowing how some other 61xx family movements operate, I should have assumed less and investigated more... Anyway, I browsed over a series of reviews, forum posts, etc. and it seems that 6146 only has a semi-quick set day, as hankaarons has described.

I've encountered both simple and more detailed instructions on how to use its semi-quick set for the day of the week. The simple version:

- with the crown in the 2nd position, forward the hour hand from 8 past 12 to 6, the day should change, return to 8, repeat

and the detailed one:

- turn the hour to 8 push in crown then pull out and turn the hour to 12 then push in crown pull out and turn the hour to 6, then push in crown then pull out and turn the hour back to 8. Then pull out crown and turn forward to 6 (the day changes) then turn back to 8 push in crown and pull out and turn forward to 6 (the day changes).

Both versions seem the same in essence, the details in the latter make sense. Perhaps another 6146 owner can chip in if the procedure is correct.


As to the sellers reply... it's obviously incomplete, to say at least. Perhaps the details were lost in translation, but still. Don't really know what to make of it. I'd try to follow up, but who knows if the communication will get any better.

I still think that the symptoms described (no hand-winding, date sets with the crown in the base position, no hacking) point to the stem/keyless works issue...

Do you have movement photos?
 

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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
Just wanted to update:

I'm extremely happy to share with you all that my watchmaker was able to fix the movement with minimal headache. He explained that a piece that connects to the stem was "bent" out of position and causing all the problems I listed. He charged me $45 and complimented how nice he found the watch and movement, and it's now happily sitting on my wrist!

So while yes, the seller's communication and ability to do business in English leaves much to be desired, at least I have a fully functioning vintage Grand Seiko as advertised. I'm a very happy camper!

Seiya was kind enough to hook me up with a 16mm Grand Seiko buckle and a very nice Japanese shell cordovan strap, I'll surely post pictures when I can. This watch is truly magnificent and will become my go-to dress piece.

Thank you all so much for the support and assistance.

PS: I can't believe the prices these are going for. I paid about $800 for this 36kbph vintage masterpiece, and I couldn't be more thrilled. What a steal.
 

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Glad your watchmaker got it working again, although it's still a little suspicious the way the seller handled everything and the way the watch arrived. I'd at least be asking for a partial refund to pay for the cost of the repair so far.

Regarding the dial, did the 6146-8000's come in a black dial variant? Hadn't heard of that particular variation before, although to be honest the amount of different dials and cases on these 61GS's can get quite dizzying at some point.

Also, not enough pictures in the thread, so here's my 6156 :)

Wrist.jpg
 

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
Regarding the dial, did the 6146-8000's come in a black dial variant?
This is a very good question, and one I had before purchasing. To be honest, I couldn't turn up anything definitively one way or another via google and I decided to take the chance despite lacking clarification. Can anyone else shed some light on this? I'd at least want to know for sure, even if it's not genuine.
 

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This is a very good question, and one I had before purchasing. To be honest, I couldn't turn up anything definitively one way or another via google and I decided to take the chance despite lacking clarification. Can anyone else shed some light on this? I'd at least want to know for sure, even if it's not genuine.
I've never seen anyone say definitively that a black dial variant existed for that particular case and dial, but as you say it's not something I've seen anyone say is exactly non-existent either. It's not like the black dial 5722's, which most assuredly are not original (as decent as the dial print on them may look). I've also noticed that while most Japanese sellers will state whether something is redialed or modified, there has been an uptick in some watches sold that are outright dishonest about it.

Maybe @Gerald_D can chime in on the subject. I believe he's collected a good chunk of the vintage GS and has researched quite a bit on a lot of the variants.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Maybe @Gerald_D can chime in on the subject. I believe he's collected a good chunk of the vintage GS and has researched quite a bit on a lot of the variants.
That would be wonderful if he happens to view this topic. I would appreciate any and all input.

At any rate, the black dial satisfied what I was in the market for: a black dial vintage GS. The case and movement are original and if the dial turns out to be custom, then I have a modded vintage piece - isn't the end of the world. The print on the dial definitely appears to my untrained eye to be original Seiko, but as we all know there are custom dials that look OEM nowadays.

If it proves to be anything other than original, I can always pick up a silver 6146 in the future just to actually have the proper watch itself. But regardless, I'm still satisfied =).
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Here's a couple of pics:


WstHJJ8.jpg

cTscGp3.jpg
 

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Discussion Starter #15 (Edited)
Found the answer!

https://thespringbar.com/blogs/guides/grand-seiko-collectors-guide#heading28

Watch collectors should note that model 6145-8050has a green dial color which is rare. Models 6146-8020 and 4522-7000 with a black dial, 6146-8040with a starlight dial, and 6146-8050 with a blue dial are also rare specimens of this series.


And the bottom of mine says "6146-8020," so there we go. It's genuine! It's funny, I definitely read this article before but don't remember this passage. Oh well, definitely glad to have some sort of confirmation.

 

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Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
Man, the sound of the 36kBPH movement is like music. This is my first 36k watch, originally thought about getting a Lord Marvel until I discovered that vintage Grand Seikos had this kind of caliber as well.

Really couldn't be more thrilled. If any of you have considered a vintage Grand Seiko, you really shouldn't hesitate. They are marvelous. I used to gush about how exquisite the King Seikos were, and this yet even a step above that.

17QuiS1.jpg
 
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I'm very pleased it all ended well..

I shall certainly be chasing a vintage GS at some point & your lovely example has certainly confirmed how superb they are.

I already own a 1968 Sportsman so it could do with another companion!
 
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