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Vintage Seiko World Time - Collectors / Owners

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#1 · (Edited)
Calling all owners, collectors and/or aficionados of the Seiko World Time watches from the 1960's and 1970's...

I recently started collecting various watches in this series and have spent a lot of time researching the various models and details. In my brief time with these watches, I have found a lot of "for sale" listings (most in fact) that include aftermarket dials, are parts-bin specials mixing model and generation parts, or in some way or another are not entirely original / accurate. For a 50-ish year old watch, that is to be expected and often times refurbishing one involves some aftermarket or replacement requirements.

In an attempt to organize my research on this series, I am working on a Google Doc, broken into section by model / generation. I am hoping this will be a gathering point for as much accurate information as possible about these watches, particularly their original details - and help out other current and future collectors / owners. I am gathering images from wherever I can find them (google, ebay, etc), and this is all purely for educational purposes.

I am hoping there are at least a few people out there that share my interest in these watches and may be able to contribute to the accuracy and completeness of this document.

Here's the document link - I have enabled comments - please feel free to comment here or PM me.


UPDATE: this document has started to transform into a website, here:
 
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#2 ·
Calling all owners, collectors and/or aficionados of the Seiko World Time watches from the 1960's and 1970's...

I recently started collecting various watches in this series and have spent a lot of time researching the various models and details. In my brief time with these watches, I have found a lot of "for sale" listings (most in fact) that include aftermarket dials, are parts-bin specials mixing model and generation parts, or in some way or another are not entirely original / accurate. For a 50-ish year old watch, that is to be expected and often times refurbishing one involves some aftermarket or replacement requirements.

In an attempt to organize my research on this series, I am working on a Google Doc, broken into section by model / generation. I am hoping this will be a gathering point for as much accurate information as possible about these watches, particularly their original details - and help out other current and future collectors / owners. I am gathering images from wherever I can find them (google, ebay, etc), and this is all purely for educational purposes.

I am hoping there are at least a few people out there that share my interest in these watches and may be able to contribute to the accuracy and completeness of this document.

Here's the document link - I have enabled comments - please feel free to comment here or PM me.

Awesome work. Thank you. I've downloaded already and will check for updates. Just a great reference. Cheers.
 
#4 ·
All great info and appreciate all the work you put into it. Of interest, the lug adaptors for the World Timers were different from the One-Button Chronographs...a detail I didn't notice till I saw all your pics.

If there's any suggestion for a new section it might be one for modern re-issues. As far as I know, the 5M85-0AF0 SUN067P1 Kinetic (I've since sold mine) was the closest non-official reissue of these watches by Seiko:

16062864


-Brian
 
#8 ·
All great info and appreciate all the work you put into it. Of interest, the lug adaptors for the World Timers were different from the One-Button Chronographs...a detail I didn't notice till I saw all your pics.

If there's any suggestion for a new section it might be one for modern re-issues. As far as I know, the 5M85-0AF0 SUN067P1 Kinetic (I've since sold mine) was the closest non-official reissue of these watches by Seiko:

View attachment 16062864

-Brian
Also, there is at least one other modern World Time from SEIKO that I have seen:



Both black and white dial variants.

IMO they are missing an opportunity to make a proper automatic (not quartz) version.
 
#9 ·
Are there any 6117-6010/9 and/or a 62 17-7010 owners out there?

I would like to confirm that these two watches share the same case - and hopefully confirm measurements (case size, lug to lug, and lug/bracelet size). Fingers crossed?
I've got a 6217-7010. Can't speak to the comparison with a 6117-60xx, however I can report my calipers read:

Diameter: 38.5mm
Lug-to-lug: 44.5mm measured at the tips of the lugs.
Lug width: 19mm

Caseback date on mine is November 1967.

From pictures I've seen, I'd venture to guess that the black sunburst dials all had the same color yellowish/brownish/reddish chapter rings that have faded to different shades. I doubt Seiko made different dials for this model, at least not intentionally.
 
#11 ·
Also note, on my black dial w/ white/yellow 24 hour ring, the bronze GMT hand seems to match - like that was intentional. The later version's short red GMT would also match the white/red 24 hour ring - and make sense. The one that makes less sense is my last photo above, where you have the bronze GMT hand with the white/red 24 hour ring... that is odd.

Does anyone have a catalog scan or ANY ad scans of the 6217-7010? I can't seem to track one down.
 
#14 ·
Ok - I've made some major updates the 2nd generation watches in the Google Doc. It seems that the Asian Games version was likely only manufactured in 1966, and retained the dial (no lume) from the previous generation watch. Then it appears in 1967 we see the first lumed dial, but in the same model no and case. Any 6217-7010 owners - can you confirm your year of production, dial and Asian Games vs Standard case back?

So far, I have documented 3 different case designs across 4 major releases (5 if you count the Asian Games as a separate watch). These break out into 6 model numbers and give us at least 14 different dials, 10 different bezels, and 7 different case backs - whew ...
 
#18 · (Edited)
I should have said - excellent example - I love that watch, and am currently on the hunt for a good example to add to my collection as well.

Along with confirming the manufacture year - do you have calipers to confirm the case size and lug to lug? [edit] sorry Jamaha - I see you already shared that info a while ago - my mind as turned to mush working through all the variations of this watch.
 
#19 ·
If you have a 6117-640X - or have time to google around and check any images or listings - please note the month/year of production.

I am trying to determine the earliest and latest dates for this model. So far the earliest I have seen is Dec 1969 and the latest is August 1976. Any earlier or later than that?
 
#20 ·
I have now seen several 6117-640X from December 1976 - I believe is when they went out of production - pending any examples with a later date. That would be a 7 year run - by far the longest of the World Times.

I have also discovered a large range of case back variations in this 4th generation, added to the document.

For those with poor or aging eyes, or working on small screens - I have enlarged all of the photos - should be easier to check details that way.

Thanks again for all the feedback - and keep it coming!
 
#21 ·
Next question / hunch....

Does ANYONE have ANY generation of a SEIKO World Time with a WHITE or OFF-WHITE (not silver) dial that does NOT have a linen pattern / finish?

I have a hunch the "flat white" versions of these watches are just a lighting effect in photos - and in earlier watches (gen 1 through 3) these are all silver / linen dials - and on the 4th generation it is off white (not silver) also with linen texture finish. This will reduce my dial count a bit, but I think may be more accurate.

Please prove me wrong.

Otherwise, I think I will amend the document to remove most "flat white" dial references. Its funny that sales listings say "rare linen dial" - when really that was THE dial, with the only truly rare exception being the early sunburst black/gray dials.
 
#22 ·
I've always thought those were lighting issues. All the clear photos of the dials I've seen have been silver linen patterned, and I've seen a couple in person that were linen.

Also, I want to thank you for creating this thread, and this document. I had been kind of blah on my World Time, which I bought on impulse and regretted, and I'd been planning to put it on the market, but I took it off the cheap ugly strap it came on and put it on a bit nicer one from WatchGecko and I'm appreciating it so much more! I've been enjoying wearing it for the first time, and it's due to this thread and your document reminding me of why I wanted one in the first place. Thank you @dapellegrini !
 
#23 ·
Thanks for the encouragement. I'm glad you have started wearing yours again. If ever you do want to find a new home for it - please keep me in mind - but I'm more happy to hear you are enjoying it! Also check ebay for vintage seiko bracelets - I've seen a few come up that look like OEM fits for this model or the one right after it in the $100-200 range. That may seem a lot, but I think watches with an original bracelet will sell for a premium of at least that.

Initially I thought the OEM bracelets that I have felt cheap - but they have grown on me.

Of all the generations of this watch - yours (the "Standard" 2nd gen) is the most challenging to validate and document! I can find no information on it from SEIKO - no catalog listings, no ad scans, nothing. I also can't find any past or present new-old-stock sales listings. Right now it seems it was a 1967 only dial and perhaps never put through any marketing effort. More odd still that it shares a case but not dial or hands with the Asian Games watch of 1966. If you ever stumble on any scans or NOS listings (new or old) - please let me know!
 
#25 ·
At this point there are a few general points that still intrigue me:
  • Is the (1st gen) Dolphin Case back only for Dec 1964? It appears so - maybe a send off version?
  • Is the (1st gen) 1967 version of the 7000 a true re-issue or just service/replacement cases?
  • Is there any proof that the Gold/Gilt version of the 6409 (4th gen) was every produced outside of Feb 1972? Was there ever a 6400 version? Seems all versions I have seen are 6409 (North American Market) and manufactured in Feb 1972.
  • Do the 6217-7010 and the 6117-6010/9 share the same case (2nd and 3rd gen)?
  • What is up with gen 2? No marketing or catalog scans, and two odd versions...
If we look at this chronologically, it appears kind of like this:
  • Gen 1
    • Mar - Aug 1964 - "First" Special edition World Time for the Tokyo Olympics etched back
    • Sept - Nov 1964 - Stamped case back fixes "rub-away" etched case back
    • Dec 1964 - Dolphin case back produced - perhaps "final edition"?
    • 1965 - no world times
  • Gen 2
    • 1966 - Special Asian Games - new case and case back, same dial and hands from Gen 1
    • 1967 - Same model number as Asian games, but new lumed dial and hands, and new "standard" case back. This is perhaps the first watch that is not a "special edition" for a specific event?
  • Re-issue of Gen 1
    • 1967 - we see some 1st gen watches appear again - perhaps service cases? Perhaps for the Mexico Olympics - case backs engraved instead of etched or stamped
  • Gen 3
    • 1968 - 3rd gen released, Chicago replaced by Mexico on cities ring - a more fitting and likely Mexico Olympics watch - but standard case back (no Olympic torch)
    • 1969 - 3rd gen continues
  • Gen 4
    • Dec 1969 - 4th gen introduced - WORLD TIME at 6-o'clock on white and black dials (like Gen 3) - GTM and London separated (like Gen 3)
    • Jan 1972 - WORLD TIME moved to 12-o'clock on white dial - all dials put GMT and London back at some spot on cities ring
    • Feb 1972 - gold/gilt version released - limited perhaps to just this month and only the North American market (6409 model only)
    • Sometime after 1974 - All black dial watches also move WORLD TIME to 12-o'clock
    • Dec 1976 - production ends
 
#29 ·
Also - thought I would add this here too....

In the 6217-7000 there seems to be two GMT hand versions. One is thin, the other tapered (thicker at the center of the dial, thinner as it arrives at the arrow). Going through the ad scans, some do show the thin GMT hand on this first gen model, while most show the tapered version - so I think both are OEM and correct for the 6217-7000.

Watch Analog watch Product Watch accessory Clock

Watch Analog watch Product Clock Watch accessory


I am not clear if the tapered version was used on the 6217-7010. I am also not clear where the red colored GMT (without lume) was used originally, but there do seem to be some of those floating around that look original ...
 
#31 · (Edited)
I've started a Google Sheet to track the largest / latest Serial Numbers by Generation of watch and Month/Year. If you know of any later S/N's or have an example of one in a month/year that is currently blank - please let me know. I am hoping over time this gives a clearer picture of the total production numbers per generation - or at least an educated guess.

-- DELETED --

UPDATE: This has been replaced with a full-fledged web app, found here: Seiko World Time Study - Casebacks
 
#32 ·
Can anyone confirm that I am reading these serial numbers correctly:

Watch Analog watch Clock Everyday carry Watch accessory


This is an August 1968 (Asian Games) - Production No 86,520 - meaning 86,520+ of this watch manufactured in this month year.

Motor vehicle Automotive tire Rim Automotive wheel system Analog watch


And this is a Lumed / Black dial 6217-7010, production no 30,117 from May 1967 - again meaning at least 30k of this model in the month/year

If I am reading those right - then these are by far the two largest production month/year/models I have seen so far. Next closest would be the Gen 1 watches made in May and August of 1964, with over 11k and 13k respectively.
 
#33 · (Edited)
I've decided to replace the Google Sheet with a web page that analyses a repository of case images - so you don't have to take my word for it - and also so I can double check my own research for dups or errors. Getting close to 200 watches cataloged so far...

For now it is hosted here:


If you have any data points to add - please PM me. If you see anything interesting the data - please don't assume I saw it too - and post here.

I realize some people prefer not to share S/N's, which is fine - but I think that is table stakes to get production numbers sorted out here.
 
#34 · (Edited)
I've made some BIG updates to this whole case back study since my last post.

Mainly, I have now cataloged 275 watches, and expanded the data points per watch from 4 to 20. This has allowed me to create some interesting data summaries at the top of the page.

I've also added a "Data Explorer" (top nav), a popup when you click on each watch S/N with the detail (so you don't have to load the screen with all of the massive images in them), and a lot more summaries. It is a lot to take in.

It should be a little more friendly on mobile - but still a tablet or computer screen is best to view the data.

VIEW IT HERE:

A few new observations based on the data (also cross-noted on TWS)
  • Gen 1 through 3 show about 75% of dials being silver, with 25% being black
  • Gen 4 is closer to a 50/50 split of black vs white dials
  • The majority of Gen 4 dials had WORLD TIME at 6 o-clock through Dec 1970. From there on the vast majority were at 12 o-clock. It seems plausible the that outliers are dial swaps
  • 6117-6409's seem to be manufactured only from 1970 - 1972, whereas the 6117-6400 version went from Dec 1969 through Dec 1976
  • The GMT hand on Gen 1 (6217-7000) watches seems to be mostly the tapered version through Nov 1964. This narrow version is spotted from July 1964 through the 1967 models, suggesting the tapered version was the original GMT hand style and the thin version was an update / change later in the first year of production
I will be doing a more detailed review of the franken watches in the collection - comparing suspected aftermarket dials, etc.

I will revise my list of questions at the top of this thread - don't think there are many left now. And will also get to revising the Google Doc ASAP.
 
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