[dapellegrini]

I have now seen several 6117-640X from December 1976 - I believe is when they went out of production - pending any examples with a later date. That would be a 7 year run - by far the longest of the World Times.

I have also discovered a large range of case back variations in this 4th generation, added to the document.

For those with poor or aging eyes, or working on small screens - I have enlarged all of the photos - should be easier to check details that way.

Thanks again for all the feedback - and keep it coming!

 

[dapellegrini]

Next question / hunch....

Does ANYONE have ANY generation of a SEIKO World Time with a WHITE or OFF-WHITE (not silver) dial that does NOT have a linen pattern / finish?

I have a hunch the "flat white" versions of these watches are just a lighting effect in photos - and in earlier watches (gen 1 through 3) these are all silver / linen dials - and on the 4th generation it is off white (not silver) also with linen texture finish. This will reduce my dial count a bit, but I think may be more accurate.

Please prove me wrong.

Otherwise, I think I will amend the document to remove most "flat white" dial references. Its funny that sales listings say "rare linen dial" - when really that was THE dial, with the only truly rare exception being the early sunburst black/gray dials.

 

[jamaha]

Next question / hunch....

Does ANYONE have ANY generation of a SEIKO World Time with a WHITE or OFF-WHITE (not silver) dial that does NOT have a linen pattern / finish?

I have a hunch the "flat white" versions of these watches are just a lighting effect in photos - and in earlier watches (gen 1 through 3) these are all silver / linen dials - and on the 4th generation it is off white (not silver) also with linen texture finish. This will reduce my dial count a bit, but I think may be more accurate.

Please prove me wrong.

Otherwise, I think I will amend the document to remove most "flat white" dial references. Its funny that sales listings say "rare linen dial" - when really that was THE dial, with the only truly rare exception being the early sunburst black/gray dials.

I've always thought those were lighting issues. All the clear photos of the dials I've seen have been silver linen patterned, and I've seen a couple in person that were linen.

Also, I want to thank you for creating this thread, and this document. I had been kind of blah on my World Time, which I bought on impulse and regretted, and I'd been planning to put it on the market, but I took it off the cheap ugly strap it came on and put it on a bit nicer one from WatchGecko and I'm appreciating it so much more! I've been enjoying wearing it for the first time, and it's due to this thread and your document reminding me of why I wanted one in the first place. Thank you @dapellegrini !

 

[dapellegrini]

Thanks for the encouragement. I'm glad you have started wearing yours again. If ever you do want to find a new home for it - please keep me in mind - but I'm more happy to hear you are enjoying it! Also check ebay for vintage seiko bracelets - I've seen a few come up that look like OEM fits for this model or the one right after it in the $100-200 range. That may seem a lot, but I think watches with an original bracelet will sell for a premium of at least that.

Initially I thought the OEM bracelets that I have felt cheap - but they have grown on me.

Of all the generations of this watch - yours (the "Standard" 2nd gen) is the most challenging to validate and document! I can find no information on it from SEIKO - no catalog listings, no ad scans, nothing. I also can't find any past or present new-old-stock sales listings. Right now it seems it was a 1967 only dial and perhaps never put through any marketing effort. More odd still that it shares a case but not dial or hands with the Asian Games watch of 1966. If you ever stumble on any scans or NOS listings (new or old) - please let me know!

 

[dapellegrini]

Updated the top/first post with reduced list of outstanding questions / unresolved issues

 

[dapellegrini]

At this point there are a few general points that still intrigue me:

• Is the (1st gen) Dolphin Case back only for Dec 1964? It appears so - maybe a send off version?
• Is the (1st gen) 1967 version of the 7000 a true re-issue or just service/replacement cases?
• Is there any proof that the Gold/Gilt version of the 6409 (4th gen) was every produced outside of Feb 1972? Was there ever a 6400 version? Seems all versions I have seen are 6409 (North American Market) and manufactured in Feb 1972.
• Do the 6217-7010 and the 6117-6010/9 share the same case (2nd and 3rd gen)?
• What is up with gen 2? No marketing or catalog scans, and two odd versions...

If we look at this chronologically, it appears kind of like this:

• Gen 1
  • Mar - Aug 1964 - "First" Special edition World Time for the Tokyo Olympics etched back
  • Sept - Nov 1964 - Stamped case back fixes "rub-away" etched case back
  • Dec 1964 - Dolphin case back produced - perhaps "final edition"?
  • 1965 - no world times
• Gen 2
  • 1966 - Special Asian Games - new case and case back, same dial and hands from Gen 1
  • 1967 - Same model number as Asian games, but new lumed dial and hands, and new "standard" case back. This is perhaps the first watch that is not a "special edition" for a specific event?
• Re-issue of Gen 1
  • 1967 - we see some 1st gen watches appear again - perhaps service cases? Perhaps for the Mexico Olympics - case backs engraved instead of etched or stamped
• Gen 3
  • 1968 - 3rd gen released, Chicago replaced by Mexico on cities ring - a more fitting and likely Mexico Olympics watch - but standard case back (no Olympic torch)
  • 1969 - 3rd gen continues
• Gen 4
  • Dec 1969 - 4th gen introduced - WORLD TIME at 6-o'clock on white and black dials (like Gen 3) - GTM and London separated (like Gen 3)
  • Jan 1972 - WORLD TIME moved to 12-o'clock on white dial - all dials put GMT and London back at some spot on cities ring
  • Feb 1972 - gold/gilt version released - limited perhaps to just this month and only the North American market (6409 model only)
  • Sometime after 1974 - All black dial watches also move WORLD TIME to 12-o'clock
  • Dec 1976 - production ends

 

[dapellegrini]

Inspired by my list above - I have started a timeline section in the Google Doc... here's a preview (full thing in the doc):

 

[hi_bri]

I received my 6117-6010 (produced July 1968) on the original bracelet. Needed a crown repair and a new crystal. Dial is not perfect but good for it's age. The bracelet is interesting since the links are held in by mini-spring bars.

Here it is:

-Brian

 

[dapellegrini]

Very nice. Do yo have more detailed images of the bracelet? Side profile, clasp, underside where it meets the lugs, etc?

 

[dapellegrini]

Also - thought I would add this here too....

In the 6217-7000 there seems to be two GMT hand versions. One is thin, the other tapered (thicker at the center of the dial, thinner as it arrives at the arrow). Going through the ad scans, some do show the thin GMT hand on this first gen model, while most show the tapered version - so I think both are OEM and correct for the 6217-7000.

I am not clear if the tapered version was used on the 6217-7010. I am also not clear where the red colored GMT (without lume) was used originally, but there do seem to be some of those floating around that look original ...

 

[hi_bri]

Very nice. Do yo have more detailed images of the bracelet? Side profile, clasp, underside where it meets the lugs, etc?

Lugs have stamped 6117 601 Code:

Seiko signed fold over clasp:

Spring bar holds the links together. Interesting way to do things rather than cotter pins or pin/collars:

-Brian

 

[dapellegrini]

I've started a Google Sheet to track the largest / latest Serial Numbers by Generation of watch and Month/Year. If you know of any later S/N's or have an example of one in a month/year that is currently blank - please let me know. I am hoping over time this gives a clearer picture of the total production numbers per generation - or at least an educated guess.

-- DELETED --

UPDATE: This has been replaced with a full-fledged web app, found here: Seiko World Time Study - Casebacks

 

[dapellegrini]

Can anyone confirm that I am reading these serial numbers correctly:

This is an August 1968 (Asian Games) - Production No 86,520 - meaning 86,520+ of this watch manufactured in this month year.

And this is a Lumed / Black dial 6217-7010, production no 30,117 from May 1967 - again meaning at least 30k of this model in the month/year

If I am reading those right - then these are by far the two largest production month/year/models I have seen so far. Next closest would be the Gen 1 watches made in May and August of 1964, with over 11k and 13k respectively.

 

[dapellegrini]

I've decided to replace the Google Sheet with a web page that analyses a repository of case images - so you don't have to take my word for it - and also so I can double check my own research for dups or errors. Getting close to 200 watches cataloged so far...

For now it is hosted here:

Vintage Seiko World Time Watches

The website dedicated to all things Vintage, Seiko and World Time

seikoworldtime.com

If you have any data points to add - please PM me. If you see anything interesting the data - please don't assume I saw it too - and post here.

I realize some people prefer not to share S/N's, which is fine - but I think that is table stakes to get production numbers sorted out here.

 

[dapellegrini]

I've made some BIG updates to this whole case back study since my last post.

Mainly, I have now cataloged 275 watches, and expanded the data points per watch from 4 to 20. This has allowed me to create some interesting data summaries at the top of the page.

I've also added a "Data Explorer" (top nav), a popup when you click on each watch S/N with the detail (so you don't have to load the screen with all of the massive images in them), and a lot more summaries. It is a lot to take in.

It should be a little more friendly on mobile - but still a tablet or computer screen is best to view the data.

VIEW IT HERE:

Vintage Seiko World Time Watches

The website dedicated to all things Vintage, Seiko and World Time

seikoworldtime.com

A few new observations based on the data (also cross-noted on TWS)

• Gen 1 through 3 show about 75% of dials being silver, with 25% being black
• Gen 4 is closer to a 50/50 split of black vs white dials
• The majority of Gen 4 dials had WORLD TIME at 6 o-clock through Dec 1970. From there on the vast majority were at 12 o-clock. It seems plausible the that outliers are dial swaps
• 6117-6409's seem to be manufactured only from 1970 - 1972, whereas the 6117-6400 version went from Dec 1969 through Dec 1976
• The GMT hand on Gen 1 (6217-7000) watches seems to be mostly the tapered version through Nov 1964. This narrow version is spotted from July 1964 through the 1967 models, suggesting the tapered version was the original GMT hand style and the thin version was an update / change later in the first year of production

I will be doing a more detailed review of the franken watches in the collection - comparing suspected aftermarket dials, etc.

I will revise my list of questions at the top of this thread - don't think there are many left now. And will also get to revising the Google Doc ASAP.

 

[dapellegrini]

Here's another head scratcher. the same S/N - different sellers, different dials ...

My best guess is that someone in Japan bought this beautiful watch with the silver dial, and replaced it with a black to try and sell it for more on ebay (gasp)

Is later listed on the bay looking like this:

 

[dapellegrini]

The image study has got even more updates.

1. It should be WAY faster now - using thumbnails where appropriate instead of (huge) full size images in places (the full size are still there for zooming etc)
2. It is all reformatted to feel more like a blog post
3. There are more summaries
4. The Data Explorer has a Thumbnail Gallery option - so as you configure the selection data in the grid (filter and sort) - you can then visualize the selection as a Thumbnail gallery (Front or Back images)
5. There are now 371 watches cataloged!
6. And ... it now is on it's own domain: seikoworldtime.com

PM me if you have a watch that is not included and are willing to share front and back photos to add to the catalog.

The site: Seiko World Time Study - Casebacks

 

[dapellegrini]

From pictures I've seen, I'd venture to guess that the black sunburst dials all had the same color yellowish/brownish/reddish chapter rings that have faded to different shades. I doubt Seiko made different dials for this model, at least not intentionally.

On the topic of the early sunburst black dials having two different 24-hour ring colors, one a yellowish and one a reddish hue - I also wonder if they are all one color faded out - still trying to figure that out - but it seems odd that Seiko would have two colors for that dial, unless they were for different models... Here's a thumbnail view of the data points I have so far: seikoworldtime.com/dataview?dialColor=Black/Gray+Sunburst&correctDial=true&thumbs=true

If anyone has a reddish color one they don't mind leaving in direct sunlight for 3 months - that would definitely further the research

 

[dapellegrini]

I'm now up to 406 watches cataloged.

I have started adding more content to the site.

Reference Cities - Changes over the Years

A history of changes to the Cities Bezel on SEIKO World Time mechanical watches from 1964 through 1976

seikoworldtime.com

Authenticating The Seiko World Time 6117-640X

Tips on confirming the originality of your Seiko World Time 6117-640X

seikoworldtime.com

and a couple more with ad/catalog scans.

Once I get my other watches back from servicing I have a few more awaiting photos and then ready to go....

 

[dapellegrini]

An interesting pattern is starting to emerge with the red GMT hands on the 6217-7000. I need more data, but it is starting to look like perhaps the 1967 reproductions from August through December nearly all have this thin red GMT hand - and lumed hour and minute hands. At this point the majority are also black dials, interesting with the red-colored 24 hour ring (instead of the more yellowish colored one).

Could it be that both the red GMT hand and the red-colored 24 hour ring (on black dial) are from the 1967 6217-7000 run? Did these late reproduction also include lumed hands (explaining the "T" in the dial code)?

The majority of the red GMT examples from prior dates have incorrect hand sets or other items that indicate non-original parts.

The Seiko World Time 6217-7000 - 1967

All about the reproduction of the first series world time watch from SEIKO in 1967

seikoworldtime.com