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Discussion Starter #1
I've heard several different answers to this question. I recently purchased a watch from a 'watchmaker' that's currently running a minute behind everyday. I spoke to the person I bought the watch from and they said this is accurate for the specific watch. Being a higher end watch I would expect the variance to be much less. I have several other watches that gain/lose no more then 30 seconds per day. Being a relative newbie to vintage watches, I would assume that after a full servicing it's possible to have a vintage movement fall with the original specifications for that movement. Am I incorrect in my assumption. I've read several posts here and else where and I can't seem to get a clear answer.
 

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Was the watch recently serviced properly? What watch/movement?
A minute slow per day sounds a bit much.

Some of my vintages run in the +/- 20 second or so a day, but my Eternas, Omega, UG, Tudor and Bucherer are all within COSC specs or just a little outside, and only two are [originally] chronometre-rated. Even my 33yr old Orient is running at about -15/day and it's never been serviced in it's life.
 

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If the piece is mechanically sound and is, as you say, 'higher end', then there is no reason it should be so inaccurate.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
If the piece is mechanically sound and is, as you say, 'higher end', then there is no reason it should be so inaccurate.
I didn't think so, but the dealer is saying different. They want me to return the watch for a refund. I guess I am going to take it to my watchmaker as I do like the watch. At the least I know not to buy from them again.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Was the watch recently serviced properly? What watch/movement?
A minute slow per day sounds a bit much.

Some of my vintages run in the +/- 20 second or so a day, but my Eternas, Omega, UG, Tudor and Bucherer are all within COSC specs or just a little outside, and only two are [originally] chronometre-rated. Even my 33yr old Orient is running at about -15/day and it's never been serviced in it's life.
It's a 1950's Tudor Oysterdate. It loses a minimum one minute per day. I am kind of annoyed that the dealer wont own up to the fact that they are in the wrong.
 

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A minute per day error is about as much as I will tolerate on a watch older than I am... But some watches cost more to get down to that rate or better than I am willing to sacrifice... so I put up with them.

I have very few watches that meet COSC specs in all 6 positions. Most will easily meet it in only one position... but that doesn't really count now does it? :)
 

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It's a 1950's Tudor Oysterdate. It loses a minimum one minute per day. I am kind of annoyed that the dealer wont own up to the fact that they are in the wrong.
I would be too. That's crazy. That Tudor -with proper servicing- is capable of MUCH better accuracy than that. My 1952 Tudor Oyster manual wind only gains ~10 sec/day. Different movement, I know, but still.....

Get it serviced/adjusted, and then pay the seller a little visit and show the fool what it's capable of. :-!
 

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That Tudor -with proper servicing- is capable of MUCH better accuracy than that.
+1 - it should be within 10 to 15 seconds a day at worst. I have a couple 40+ year old Longines and Omegas that are within COSC specs including a 1960 Seamaster caliber 591 that averages +3 seconds a day. I agree you should find a better watchmaker. I would second Eeeb's limit of 1 minute a day but only if it's a very old (read: 60 years or more) watch. I'd be happier with less than 30 seconds a day though.
 

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Hi emmanuelgoldstein,

keep in mind that what we call today vintage or more striking old became
out of fashion some or many decades ago. And the best what could have
happened to such a watch is that it was dropped in a drawer and nobody
cared for its future. If such a watch is digged out today, often cleaning
and lubricating brings it back to original performance - an accurate watch
though.

But not all watches (even not the majority) shared this fortune. Many were
kept running by tinkers until they became simply trash, because nobody
wanted to invest in a proper watchmaker job for such a watch. If digged
out today, often a further tinker gets it runnung long enough for a sale,
and you can almost never expect to get it back to initial performance with
reasonable effort. These items don't justify the designation timepiece,
they are just pieces.

So if your watch doesn't run precisely, you first should have it tested it on
a timing machine, to destinguish whether it belongs to the first (lucky)
group or (more likely) to the second. If it still runs steadily in all positions,
the daily error can be easily corrected, and a simple service will make it an
accurate watch for many decades.

If the oscillation frequency is erratically dithering, better return it. You can
expect repair cost never covered by the value of the watch after repair.

The summary: Not 30s deviation per day ist the problem: It can be easily
corrected. A watch in good condirin will keep the correction for a long
time, but a damaged watch will change the speed probably already the
next day.

I just started to collect watch desasters on this page:
http://www.ranfft.de/uhr/info-problem-e.html
Nobody except a watchmaker would believe them, and therefore I
document them with accompanying photos. Visiting the page(s) now and
then will give you an imagination what you can expect from an old watch.

Regards, Roland Ranfft
 

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Discussion Starter #10
+1 - it should be within 10 to 15 seconds a day at worst. I have a couple 40+ year old Longines and Omegas that are within COSC specs including a 1960 Seamaster caliber 591 that averages +3 seconds a day. I agree you should find a better watchmaker. I would second Eeeb's limit of 1 minute a day but only if it's a very old (read: 60 years or more) watch. I'd be happier with less than 30 seconds a day though.
It's not my personal watchmaker. It's one that was recommended to me for vintage sales. I knew he was incorrect in stating that a vintage watch won't run near manufacturers specs after a servicing. However, I wanted to see if others shared my opinion or my head was off in the clouds. All of my other watches run less then 30 seconds a day. It's only this one that has been causing me grief. I should return the watch for a refund, but I like it to much. I am most likely going to take it to my watchmaker and have him take care of it.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Hi emmanuelgoldstein,

keep in mind that what we call today vintage or more striking old became
out of fashion some or many decades ago. And the best what could have
happened to such a watch is that it was dropped in a drawer and nobody
cared for its future. If such a watch is digged out today, often cleaning
and lubricating brings it back to original performance - an accurate watch
though.

But not all watches (even not the majority) shared this fortune. Many were
kept running by tinkers until they became simply trash, because nobody
wanted to invest in a proper watchmaker job for such a watch. If digged
out today, often a further tinker gets it runnung long enough for a sale,
and you can almost never expect to get it back to initial performance with
reasonable effort. These items don't justify the designation timepiece,
they are just pieces.

So if your watch doesn't run precisely, you first should have it tested it on
a timing machine, to destinguish whether it belongs to the first (lucky)
group or (more likely) to the second. If it still runs steadily in all positions,
the daily error can be easily corrected, and a simple service will make it an
accurate watch for many decades.

If the oscillation frequency is erratically dithering, better return it. You can
expect repair cost never covered by the value of the watch after repair.

The summary: Not 30s deviation per day ist the problem: It can be easily
corrected. A watch in good condirin will keep the correction for a long
time, but a damaged watch will change the speed probably already the
next day.

I just started to collect watch desasters on this page:
http://www.ranfft.de/uhr/info-problem-e.html
Nobody except a watchmaker would believe them, and therefore I
document them with accompanying photos. Visiting the page(s) now and
then will give you an imagination what you can expect from an old watch.

Regards, Roland Ranfft
Danke, Dr. Ranfft. I have visited your Web site quite often and it has been of immeasurable help. The person who sold watch claims to have serviced it before he shipped it to me. From what my inexperienced eyes can see the movement looks to be in good condition. Not the best picture of the movement, but my camera is in Costa Rica with my girlfriend. I plan on bringing the watch to my watchmaker. Sorry I thought it was 1950's but it is actually the 60's.

 

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Hi emmanuelgoldstein,

even more likely it is from the seventies or later. The movement is an
ETA 2824 (or even a later version). This wasn't made before 1971.

But this implies that you'll have no problems with parts if any needed, and
moreover you need not expect real troubles with such a young watch.

The common rule for such a young movement: No rust no trouble.

Regards, Roland Ranfft
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Hi emmanuelgoldstein,

even more likely it is from the seventies or later. The movement is an
ETA 2824 (or even a later version). This wasn't made before 1971.

But this implies that you'll have no problems with parts if any needed, and
moreover you need not expect real troubles with such a young watch.

The common rule for such a young movement: No rust no trouble.

Regards, Roland Ranfft
I just looked at my receipt and it does state 60/70's. I think I may need to slow down a bit and not rush into things. I've gone on such a spree lately that I haven't looked thoroughly at what I have bought. Well it is good to know that it's an ETA 2824. As you said it will be easy to get parts for. Luckily I only have one more watch budgeted for the summer, and I am currently bidding on it. I've bought several watches from this person and none have been a problem. I think it may be time now to save up for a special watch. Thank you for your help Dr. Ranfft it has been much appreciated.
 

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I think I may need to slow down a bit and not rush into things. I've gone on such a spree lately that I haven't looked thoroughly at what I have bought.
That's the smartest thing you can do. :-! You'll notice that most of the members who go through several watches a year do buy in small spurts, but then take some time off to assess their purchases. The 6 I bought in one week back in April (THIS THREAD) was a lucky haul - 4 are definite keepers, 1 is being serviced so I can flip it with a clear conscience, and I'm on the fence about 1 other but leaning towards keeping it. This recent purchases are not all in yet so the jury is out, but things are looking very good.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
That's the smartest thing you can do. :-! You'll notice that most of the members who go through several watches a year do buy in small spurts, but then take some time off to assess their purchases. The 6 I bought in one week back in April (THIS THREAD) was a lucky haul - 4 are definite keepers, 1 is being serviced so I can flip it with a clear conscience, and I'm on the fence about 1 other but leaning towards keeping it. This recent purchases are not all in yet so the jury is out, but things are looking very good.
I am bidding on this one last watch. Hopefully it doesn't run as high as my maximum bid. It would be nice to come in way under my maximum. Definitely after this one I am going to stop for a bit. I've been looking at a JLC that is calling my name.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
I wonder if my sundial is old or vintage. It's only like 600 years old.
 

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Yes, all that this watch needs is a better watchmaker. Have him dismantle, clean and oil it and it will come back giving the performance that it is capable of. It is a good mid- range watch fitted with a good and popular movement for which all spares are readily available. There is no reason why it could not be made to meet its original specification.
 
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