WatchUSeek Watch Forums banner

1 - 20 of 100 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
18 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Hi to everyone!

If you've read the part "About me", you'll notice, that my knowledge about mechanical and/or automatic watches is somewhat very limited to say at least. But, I do follow a simple rule. I educate myself, ask others, that know more and are more experienced, or the best variant:

I try to get advice from the BEST professionals in their "trade", if I'm in doubt of something or if there is something I simply do not know.

So was the case with my new Seiko 5 SPORTS SRP551K1 with the caliber 4R36 inside.

I opened a thread around a week ago, asking the question:

Can the caliber 4R36 be REGULARLY MANUALLY wound with NO LONG-TERM consequences for the watch (and this question applies also to doing so partially, for example 10 - 15 clockwise turns of the crown every night)?

Why did I ask this? Because a simple FACT, which is TRUE for another watch I own:

By treating a TISSOT Visodate (2016 model with caliber 2836-2) in such a way, you will DEFINITIVELY damage the watch or break something in the long run.

I received an answer from a member, that in contrary to the Visodate, this could be done without consequences.

WRONG!

Today I was talking over a phone with the chief mechanic for the SEIKO brand in Slovenia, which has more than 30 years (or even 40) of experiences with those watches (and of course also with the other more "prestige" models as GRAND Seiko, beside that, he has also all the needed experiences for the ORIENT brand, which are "famous" for their accurate and very efficient 'in-house' movements).

Without going into details about his long and technical explanation (some of it, I even didn't understand), the BOTTOM LINE was:

"These watches (and the vast majority of others, not only Seikos, but also other brands) if AUTOMATIC (even if they offer the possibility of manual winding and hacking) ARE NOT BUILT WITH SUCH "RUGGEDNESS" as MECHANICAL ONLY WATCHES ARE. If you will manually wind them (even partially), YOU WILL SHORTEN THE LIFESPAN of the watch in the best case OR BREAK SOMETHING in the worst!"

(He explained exactly what and why, but I didn't understand it all.)

"If the watch accuracy "suffers", because of various reasons it is not wound up fully...."

(But he pointed out, that, this should NOT HAPPEN - or have a major impact, until the spring is still around 50% of its MAXIMUM "capacity".)

"...it is better to use a winder, but this will be rarely be necessary because, you REALLY have to be INACTIVE or wear the watch ONLY OCCASIONALLY or for short periods of time to be impacted by this in a significant way*, than "touch" the crown."

"The watch should be ONLY wound manually with 5 or 6 turns of the crown, for the reason ONLY, if it stopped completely, to give it a "start-up push".
This guy WITHOUT A DOUBT knows what he is talking about and I'm without a doubt going to follow his advice.

I wanted to share this knowledge with the community, because the manuals (at least in my case) are somewhat "ambiguous" about this topic, but you can of course do, as you like.

Regards.

P.S.

* in my case this means in the WORST CASE, that my watch is 13 - 15 seconds fast over the period of 24 hours (acceptable) instead of 9 or 10 seconds (what the heck I'm even complaining), if fully wound MOST of the time.

Also, I forgot to mention, that he emphasized, that the Seiko 5 model (as a brand) is meant (and was also advertised in this way) to be WORN at ANY and ALL possible times by working people, who do get their hands "dirty" (and those people certainly won't have problems with their watch not being wound sufficiently). :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,919 Posts
There are many varying opinions on manually winding. While I am not sure about it being a bad thing, I rarely manually wind my watches with hacking/winding feature movements. To get them running I gently move them back and forth to get the rotor turning for 30 seconds or so. Then, I set the time/date and put it on my wrist. Again, not sure what the truth is on this.

I am a little confused on your point about Seiko 5. A Seiko 5 with a 7s26 movement won't be any tougher to do "any and all work" than say an SKX007 with that same movement. I wouldn't do any manual work that involves impact/shock (carpentry/hammering, chopping wood, etc) with a mechanical watch.

Oh, and lastly.... welcome to the forums!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,991 Posts
Sorry, I dont buy this for a second. this seems like paranoid rumors that fly around before you have been into watches for a while, and have educated yourself. kind of like the people who say that "dynamic water pressure" from swimming will flood your 200m dive watch.
as with anything and everything in life, moderation is key. I have exclusively Seiko Automatics (well 90% at least) and I have had TONS of 4r36/nh36/35 movements in the past. Never had a single problem. If it hasnt been worn in a while and has stopped, i give about 25-30 winds, and then let the rotor take over from there.Im not winding it for an hour, just the recommended amount from the manual. Im not going to live in a world of paranoid delusions that make me afraid to hand wind my watch (which is made to be hand wound!) this is too much.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
18 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
If it is true why such "feature" isn't mentioned in the user manual? Something like "do not wound manually unless really necessary".
This is a DIRECT quote of a paragraph from one of their manuals in PDF format. I really don't know what to think about it:

"Relatively steady accuracy can be obtained by wearing the watch on the wrist frequently for the self-winding type and winding up the mainspring fully everyday at a fixed time to move it regularly for the wind-up mechanical type."
What DO YOU think about this?

I think, that it is very ambiguous and POORLY translated. Similar type of language can be found in every other manual I found on the internet and in the one I received with the watch. And this is about it for instructions on manual winding.

The poor quality is obvious and ABSENCE of answers on such questions is telling by itself.

This is THE reason I contacted the customer service and by trying out quite a few phone numbers to find the REAL experts is completely enough to me.

If I have to choose between instructions which are by all accounts VERY POORLY written and lack important information AND trusting a renowned watchmaker (technician), it is no-brainer to me, which option will I choose (or decide to trust).

But ULTIMATELY, it is up to YOU, as I have written in the post, if you choose to believe the source and reasons I provided.

And there is more.

When I purchased the TISSOT Visodate, there were instructions missing ALL-TOGETHER. I found out GENERIC ones on the internet and it turned out, they are the only ones that exist. And the watch is considered to be entry luxurious, costing over 500 EUROS.

Only the seller mentioned me very briefly, not to wind up the watch regularly - without ANY proper explanation. It was the customer service, that gave me a few days later an explanation on MY PERSONAL REQUEST. And they also told me, that NO other instructions as generic exist.

But good to know, because I learned something from this lesson, although it was a costly one:

In MOST cases (but not all !!!) the sellers (companies) interest is to SELL you the product. Every other thing comes SECOND. Including customer service.

In this case I chose to believe the person on the other side of the phone. Why? He NEVER asked WHERE I bought the watch. He was very pleased, that someone took its time, to actually learn something new. And he was not in a hurry. Though chief technician with plenty of work, he took his time to explain his case into detail.

Those were reasons COMPLETELY enough for me.

How do YOU choose to do it's up to you, because I can't really explain, why such poor quality instructions.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
18 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
"Im not going to live in a world of paranoid delusions that make me afraid to hand wind my watch (which is made to be hand wound!) this is too much."
ABSOLUTELY NO ONE is forcing you. And this is the LAST time, I try to convey something that SOME people will JUST MAYBE find useful. If not, here's a quote from my original message:

"I wanted to share this knowledge with the community, because the manuals (at least in my case) are somewhat "ambiguous" about this topic, but you can of course do, as you like."
And by the way:

You must be a very bitter person, because there is REALLY no need for offensive language as yours.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,991 Posts
Not bitter, but your first posts here are trying to induce panic with these claims. you have presented no evidence to back up your claims, just a phone conversation you had with someone. if its proven to be true, then fine ill buy that, but i dont think its fair to come on here and try to start a movement panic, your first post is like a sensational headline, promising doom and gloom to your watch if you hand wind it. thats just crazy.

here is an explanation from the watch maker over at bernard. https://www.bernardwatch.com/blog/why-is-it-important-to-wind-my-automatic-with-the-crown/
my problem is that you are presenting this as absolute fact, when in fact it is not been proven, and there are many threads about this.
you yourself admit in your first post that you have little to no knowledge of movements, yet you are stating all of this as if you are an expert, it just doesnt add up.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,991 Posts
you know what, you're right, there is no sense in arguing, you are entitled to your opinion, and have every right to share it. i shouldnt take my frustration out on you. carry on.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
18 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
Ok, let's have it YOUR way:

Here is a contact and you can use ALL the resources I'll provide here, which will CONFIRM, that I did not make up this claim and that it came from an OFFICIAL SEIKO source for my country in EU:

The name of the company: URCA d.o.o.

Website for service: Servis - urca.si

Contact phone
: 051 450 460 (Mobile, without country code for Slovenia, EU - which is +386), Stationary: 01 439 55 00

Contact person: Mr. Brane (chief SEIKO technician/watchmaker for Slovenia, EU) - the person with which I had the conversation in question;

Contact E-mail: [email protected]

This company is the OFFICIAL SEIKO REPRESENTATIVE (and offers CUSTOMER support) for Slovenia, EU

EVERYONE can verify this (and EVERYTHING I have written and what was said including the credentials of the person) by all means he or she finds necessary and I really hope (ask) that at least someone verifies that and posts the findings HERE in this thread (I assume, we have members from Slovenia, so I'm making a plea to them, to do me a favor, because NO ONE will call all those names as YOU did, just short of that I'm a LIER.

By doing so, everything, what was posted in my first message in a QUOTE (name of the person, his credentials, claims he made,...) can be INDEPENDENTLY verified.

I just don't know, if he HIMSELF speaks English. But it does not matter, surely at least SOMEONE from his team does. And please Mr. PowerChucker DO IT YOURSELF. Write an e-mail to them and VERIFY EVERYTHING what was said - to the letter.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,726 Posts
Hogwash.......

You only join the forum and come in screaming...... FIRE FIRE, ALL IN CAPS... DRAMA DRAMA.

In all the posts about the 4R36 I have not seen one where a forum member has said they killed it by hand winding. Also saying you spoke to the guy in the Seiko service centre does not mean that you found the most knowledgeable person. Do a search and you will find loads of posts reporting problems with the service centers, in my case it took them over 6 months to regulate my 6R15 properly.

Any watch movement runs at its peak when fully wound, and manufacturer standard + or - are issued also for fully wound movements.

Sorry I choose to disagree with your over dramatic post which of course you are entitled to write but also does not mean that it is correct.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,991 Posts
it doesnt matter, because im going to hand wind my watches, because even if this is true, my watches are not going to break in the time that I own them. in the span of time that it might take to "ruin" my Seiko's, I will have lived years and years, and owned many watches. I dont believe this is a short term damaging procedure(hand winding a had wind-able watch). of course everything mechanical will wear out over time, but they are made to be hand wound. im not calling Slovenia for this. the burden of proof is not on me, its not my job to prove your point. thats your job. as I told you in my last post, its your opinion, do what you want, im not going to argue this. I dont believe this, and thats my opinion.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
18 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
"Oh, and lastly.... welcome to the forums!"
Thank You. You made my day a little bit nicer and easier, but that is obviously my inherent character "flaw", because I take things a little bit too personally (or perceive them as a personal "attack").

Obviously you are someone, who can look and see behind the "curtain", because I admit, that a thread, which starts with the title "WARNING" and an exclamation mark is really a little bit dramatic.

But if my post is CAREFULLY read (a rarity) I really had nothing but good intentions. And I surely don't post messages to "make a name for myself by making sensational posts" (as was suggested). I'm not a teenager anymore for long years now and make my name with more important things, that are kept private.

But it is an irony, that someone implies EXACTLY that and this with my first post.

Maybe the proverb: "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions" would be a good example for capturing the mood I have created here with my post (but as everything, this is also a matter of interpretation);

Why I'm writing this?

Because the opposite is closer to the truth.

In the post, which was really among my first ones, I proposed someone to take a step back and react a little less harsh, because he almost "yelled" that the company CREATIONWATCHES should be blacklisted immediately.

Anyway, thank you again for the warm welcome (though this is not my first post, nor a first thread).

Regards. |>
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,156 Posts
I want to see what everyone says here and see what proof is offered in either direction. If the OP did his due diligence and spoke to an internal employee in the know, that's interesting.

Curious who else can be brought into this conversation with data to support it either way.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,991 Posts
I want to see what everyone says here and see what proof is offered in either direction. If the OP did his due diligence and spoke to an internal employee in the know, that's interesting.

Curious who else can be brought into this conversation with data to support it either way.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
the link i posted on the first page has a blog post by a watch maker from bernard watch co. talking about the benifit of winding the watch with the crown to achieve proper accuracy and amplitude of the main spring. he uses a timegrapher to demonstrate this with a customer who brought in a watch with low power reserve. it was an auto, but he never fully wound it with the crown, so the performance suffered greatly.
I understand that all things that are mechanical will eventually wear out and break, but in the normal life span of a watch, I think winding is benificial to the timekeeping of the watch. now, I know ther are exceptions to everything, so this is a generalization.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
112 Posts
The empirical evidence suggests that the situation is not a dire as the OP suggests. Otherwise, there would be quite a few more "I damaged my movement by winding my watch" threads.

And to the OP, I wholeheartedly agree with a previous post in this respect: making frequent use of a variety of emphasizational editor mechanics undercuts your message, and at best makes your posts hard to read.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
18 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
"...making frequent use of a variety of emphasizational editor mechanics undercuts your message and at best makes your posts hard to read."
Noted. An advice worth listening to.

Obviously, I'm fairly new here, but not only to this forum - I have a "hardwired" tendency to keep a certain distance from social platforms of any-kind and I use them only as a "secondary tool", where there is no other way around them.

Maybe hard to understand in those days, when virtually most other people can't cope by not looking and/or updating their Facebook page at least once per day.

I value privacy and try (maybe in vain) to preserve as much as possible of what we call personal and whenever possible, face to face contact.

Maybe this is the reason, that things (such as this thread) did not turn out as originally intended?!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,726 Posts
Maybe this is the reason, that things (such as this thread) did not turn out as originally intended?!

Based on your last couple of responses I can see it was not your intention to create a sensationalised post. Unfortunately that's that the way it came across and why I responded in the way I did.

I believe if you had written a post with the intention to create a discussion or debate on the subject it would have been better received.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
253 Posts
"Relatively steady accuracy can be obtained by wearing the watch on the wrist frequently for the self-winding type and winding up the mainspring fully everyday at a fixed time to move it regularly for the wind-up mechanical type."
To me this means to maintain time accuracy:
- wear an Automatic watch frequently
- wind a non-automatic at the same time each day. (This does not mean to manually wind an auto)
 
1 - 20 of 100 Posts
Top