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What are the most common Soviet watches before 1945?

4.1K views 30 replies 9 participants last post by  Odessa200  
#1 ·
I’m a Red Army re-enactor and I’d like to find out the models of wrist and pocket watches that would have been available from 1945 and earlier (1941 and earlier is even better - maybe no earlier than the late 1920s, though).

I’m not so much interested in the luxury or rare models as much as I am the common ones, especially ones that are available for secondhand purchase these days.

I’ve currently got a very nice exterior condition 1941 dated Kirovskie pocket watch, with a repro leather wrist strap from another vendor (both pictured). Unfortunately, despite working fine for nine hours yesterday, it now seems stuck in setting mode and I suspect it needs the sleeve adjusting.
 

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#2 · (Edited)
Hello again :)

Here is the 1940 catalog (one of the only 3 currently known from pre-war years, and likely the most relevant to you).

It might be of your interest to know that before 1932 the Soviet watchmaking industry, properly said, hadn't been established yet; so if you want to have a piece dating that back, you should turn your attention to pocket watches of former Russian era (Tsarist) makers, such as H.Moser&Cie, P.Buhre, Gabus and the likes.
Hard to call them "common ones", though... :think:

Since you specifically are a Red Army reenactor, IMHO you should try to find a genuine wristwatch (not a "pocket-to-wrist conversion" where the whole watch -dial included- is simply rotated by 90°, thus displaying the 12 o'clock mark where you would expect to find the 3); that was a common and acceptable practice for civilians, but of course a soldier -if lucky enough to be assigned a watch- wouldn't have received a custom modded piece from the Administration.
Also, I once read an official document (alas can't remember where nor provide any link, you would have to trust my word...) stating that the first orders from the Armed Forces were for the less sophisticated 7-jewelled models (produced exclusively by the 1st State Watch Factory until circa 1940/41); but since all other factories only produced 15j models, I believe that the closer you get to 1945 with your reenaction, the less important is this detail.

Hope this helps to begin with...
 
#3 ·
Thank you so much for your reply, and for sharing with me that catalogue.

I have seen that floral style case for the Kirovskie pocket watch but I was worried those examples might have been Frankens / tourist fakes (especially because I have modern pocket watches with a similar case). Good to know that it's period! (I prefer my less ostentatious example, though!)

Since you specifically are a Red Army reenactor, IMHO you should try to find a genuine wristwatch (not a "pocket-to-wrist conversion" where the whole watch -dial included- is simply rotated by 90°, thus displaying the 12 o'clock mark where you would expect to find the 3); that was a common and acceptable practice for civilians, but of course a soldier -if lucky enough to be assigned a watch- wouldn't have received a custom modded piece from the Administration.
It's funny you should say that. To say that wristwatches were more common throughout the war certainly stacks up with the photographic record that I've seen. I don't believe I've seen a rotated dial one before, though, whether in a period photo or modern photo of one, assuming I understand what you're saying. (You might have to bear with me because I'm a beginner to the subject matter).

The Kirovskie wristwatch with the seconds dial at the 9 o'clock mark seems most common in the photographic record, although it's often hard to tell from these photos what the exact model is. Period photos of Assistant and Junior Politruks show this wristwatch most commonly from what I've seen (Picture 2, 3, and 4). The photos I attach for these are of graduation courses in Leningrad, 1940. These men (and women, although not pictured) were highly trusted Komsomol members. I haven't looked at photos of commanders (the term for 'officers' in that period) who weren't political commissars in any great detail, however. However, there are a lot of dubious examples of that wristwatch available online, and genuine ones that I've seen are mostly in poorer condition than I'd like (and/or are sometimes kind of on the upper end of my budget).

I also think I've seen some rectangular case watches used. I assume that they're either Soviet-made women's watches, or maybe captured German examples. I'd love to know more about these if you have any insights. I'll try to rustle up some photos.

All that said, I do have one photograph here (Picture 1), probably from very late in the war based on one soldier having a ribbon bar, which shows a pocket watch worn in a leather strap. I strongly doubt that it's a magnetic compass worn on the wrist because you can see the crown. He's also only a Serzhant (Sergeant), which is interesting. It's very possible that it is a German-made watch and possibly even a German-made strap.

As I'm sure you know, during the late war, especially 1944+, captured or looted (depending on your disposition to the phenomena) wrist watches and pocket watches from foreign civilians and soldiers was also common, but I re-enact June 1941 and 1943+ in different roles. Plus, I only want Soviet-made watches (for the time being).

Finally, if it's not against forum rules, and if you'd be willing, I don't suppose you'd mind helping me find any good condition (by which I mean, not rusty and scratched to oblivion) and working examples for sale?
 

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#4 ·
I can see your dilemma, whilst you need a watch that's 'period', the ones that are 'correct' will be scratched, worn etc. or very expensive for a 'mint' example, but to be 'correct' yours has to be new, (as it would have been at the time) - would it be worthwhile to find a watch that matches the criteria & have somebody build a 'franken' to match the original?
 
#5 · (Edited)
Thank you for your reply.

I'm not expecting to find any mint condition ones. I don't mind ones with -some- wear. What I don't want is ones where the face is falling apart or the case has really bad rusting / scratching. I'll attach photos of ones I think are too poor condition for me. I'm really looking for an example that's 7/10 or above. Rusting and scratching on the bottom of the case is fine. The dial, glass, hands, and side of the case need to be decent, though.

I'll entertain a Franken to some extent, maybe. I don't mind that my Kirovskie pocket watch (does it have a proper name?) has a replaced balance bridge, probably from a period type, for example. If all the parts were correct (matches an original, as you say) and it wasn't overly expensive, then sure.

Above all, I really need the watch to work reliably. I expect that might be a bit of a big ask for 75+ year old watches of this manufacture, but correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm actually pretty upset that my Kirovskie pocket watch is stuck in setting mode. I'm sure it's an easy fix for someone who knows what they're doing, though.
 

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#8 · (Edited)
Thank you for your question.

Most of my uniform parts are modern reproductions. I go for higher end ones, mostly from Voin. A lot of their stuff can be made with period materials, and even their reproduction materials are very close, especially the cotton. Some other vendors excel at other items, such as ammo pouches and so on.

I choose reproduction uniform parts for a few reasons: Firstly, pretty much every item I could ever want is readily available. Some original items are quite rare. For example, an original ABTU canvas jacket. Secondly, they can be tailored and I don't have to spend a long time looking for originals in my size (which is a fairly common 50-4 for tunics, but still). Thirdly, they're guaranteed to be in mint condition because they're newly made. Thus, I won't have to worry about them falling apart at the seams like I might with originals. Leather items like belts and map cases are usually in poor condition. Fourthly, originals are almost always more expensive than reproduction items and that means I don't have to worry about ruining the reproductions as much as I would originals because they can be replaced for much cheaper and easier.

My chrome boots are original but postwar and look fine bar the soles. It's very hard to get original ones in wearable condition for a reasonable price, and totally faithful reproductions are too expensive to justify for me when I can get sufficiently accurate postwar ones for 25% of the price of reproductions. I have an original underwear set, too, which are super easy to find.

Where possible, I try to use original uniform details, such as buttons, cap badges, and so on. I won't wear original medals, badges, and awards, though. (Guards Badges would be exempted if I ever needed to wear one).

Spectacles have similar problems. I don't have original period ones because nobody will reglaze plastic originals due to the chance of breaking them, and they're usually fairly expensive depending on the style you want. I own period accurate modern-made ones (bar the anti-glare lenses which I intend to have replaced). I had reproduction dienst brille (see picture 3) but they were so uncomfortable that I had to replace them.

I don't own any weapons, but we have a group quartermaster who owns a number of original deactivated weapons. Two of them, a PPS-43 and DP machine gun, are postwar Polish, but are pretty much identical to wartime originals. They're substantially cheaper and easier to find than period examples with minimal visual downside in terms of accuracy. Reproductions of certain rare weapons would be fine, such a a Luger, AVS-36, and so on. A few replica grenades are used because of the expense and usual poor condition of deactivated originals. I'm personally not that interested in weapons. I'm a cultural historian and there's not a great deal to be said about weapons in this context.

I also have a pretty decent collection of original and reproduction small items such as stationery, mess kits, hygiene kits, rations, tobacco-related items, and so on. Reproduction items are chosen when originals are scarce / impossible to find (like hygiene kit covers or gas mask lens sweetheart photos) or when I need to actually use the items (like notepads). I try to stick with originals as much as possible. I also have replica CPSU ID and commander's ID. If I can replace the original items for cheap, then I'll use them. EG an original Pravda might eventually get worn out beyond use, but I can replace it easily. I'll post a picture of some of my collection. I also use some postwar items which aren't too obvious and fill a useful role in displays.

The reason I want an original watch is because I've not seen any really compelling reproductions, I try to go original where I think I should, and I can afford one.

The first picture is of me as a Mladshiy Politruk (ranked up to Politruk because I realised it was a rank for Komsomol members only). I have a very long post explaining this role on our facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/101910404620934/posts/155434005935240/

The third picture is a Leytenant of the ABTU.
 

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#9 ·
This is a fantastic hobby! Thanks for sharing.

As far as watches: I would say:

Don’t:

using a Chinese quartz watch.
using Kirovka with ‘made in USSR’, radiation protection, member of KGB, NKVD or other nonsense writings that cannot be possibly there.

Do:

Watch that has mixed parts (1st watch factory mixed with 2nd, etc). These watches were repaired extensively even during the original ownerships. During the war parts were shared, factories evacuated, etc. For a purist for a watch collection this is important. For your purposes I would think it is perfectly acceptable.

Refurbished dial: why not. It will be stronger and will not crumble off if you knock the watch

Replaced crystal. You want the watch to look someone new.

Serviced watch that runs strong. Some oldies are delicate and actually using them is problematic. You need something that is serviced and stable enough. Even if it has slightly mixed parts.

I hope this helps.
 
#10 · (Edited)
A Kirovskie K43 probably because some officers received these during the war, from the beginning. Some useful reference material for you here.

https://www.safonagastrocrono.club/the-military-kirovskie-type-1-k-43/

"Kirovskie was made by the Moscow Watch Factory in 1930`s. It is the first Russian watch by the own assemblage which was ordered by the Narkomat of Means of Communications. This military model of watch was used by soldiers and officers of the Soviet Army during the Second World War.
They were subject to rigorous quality control and were never available for the open market (sold exclusively through Military stores, which catered to military personnel with identification)."

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/USSR-194...mt=1&noa=0&pg=2047675&algv=SimplAMLv5PairwiseWeb&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Watch-Co...-Mens-Wrist-Watch-1930-1940/324126714822?hash=item4b77752bc6:g:n7QAAOSwmjdebqo8

The better the condition the higher the price.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Kirovski...7PGf/OQtfKcf2dSfNCn7Lze6h&checksum=313051157782b862c5cc61424d79967b30b0653f66a1

https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/799...w_type=gallery&ga_search_query=kirov&ref=sr_gallery-2-37&organic_search_click=1

When you have found the perfect watch you can get a custom made bund strap here: https://www.vintagewatchstraps.com/wristwatchinvention.php

Good luck

Barry
 
#11 · (Edited)
Thank you for the advice, Odessa200, those are great tips. If you wouldn’t mind, please could you show me some examples using images or links to examples of the goods and bads you point to?

Thanks for the links, Barry, but I suspect some of those are frankens.

The first one is dated 1937 but it has a SMERSH dial? I’m guessing it’s a replacement or something? I don’t want to buy a SMERSH one anyway, assuming it’s legit because it might not be suitable for my purposes. Actually, is that a legit dial? I’d love to know more about the dial variations because I see quite a few different ones - some with different numbers, some with larger seconds dials (presuming those are modern reproductions), with or without Kirova on the dial, etc.

The second one looks fine to me, but on the lower end of acceptable condition to me.

The third one has a good enough case, dial, and glass for me, but the hands are replacements. I’d love to know about the hands for K-43s in general. When were luminous ones introduced, for example?

The fourth one actually looks great to me. Shame about the back being damaged, but not the end of the world. I’m curious to know about the dial, though. Is it legit? I prefer ones with some markings on, like Kirova, but if the rest of the important parts of the watch are otherwise great, then I’ll consider buying this one. Saying that, he says it runs but isn’t for everyday use. I intend to use one maybe 10-20 days a year. Maybe I need someone to make me an accurate Franken that’s been completely cleaned and overhauled.

I think I should reiterate that I don’t need a watch that looks totally brand new, but I need one that isn’t too badly worn or damaged. I’m looking for one that is as accurate as possible to an original on the exterior, so the face and its details are very very important, and works well. Unless I should actually worry about them getting worse, hairline cracks and a couple of small dings are fine (see the fourth example linked by Barry).

I also don’t mind replacement parts for the movement. I definitely want one that’s dated 1945 or earlier, and I see that military marked dials are both scarce and expensive (but it doesn’t matter to me if it’s military or not). I’ve seen some K-43s (not sure if legit or not) dated postwar.

So, questions (some reiterated):
What hands are accurate and when were they introduced?
What dials are accurate and when were they introduced? I read that most 1stSWFs didn’t have dial logos.
I sometimes see serial numbers, manufacture dates, etc in red on the inside - are those legit?
What about watches that don’t appear to have dates on them?
 
#15 ·
To answer some of the questions:

Q: What hands are accurate and when were they introduced?

A: Depends on year/factory of the watch. Also depends on the dial. Some have lume some not. Also, hands were changed based on availability and owner preferences. For the reenactment you may consider overlooking a mismatch. If you post your choices we can opine if the dial/hands/year/factory match
Side note: original lume is radioactive. Consider this aspect.

Q: What dials are accurate and when were they introduced? I read that most 1stSWFs didn't have dial logos.

A: take a look here
https://www.watchuseek.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=8461834&d=1466097651

Q: I sometimes see serial numbers, manufacture dates, etc in red on the inside - are those legit? What about watches that don't appear to have dates on them?

A: numbers in red: no, added for decoration. I would not disqualify a watch based on these additions. They can be easily removed with acetone.
Watches w/o dates/stamps can be legit. During war time especially.
 
#16 · (Edited)
Thank you, Odessa200, you're very helpful.

Let's start with one I'm really not confident about:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/223481118333

This one is much more expensive than others available but perhaps a good option considering my needs:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/283710153299

This one looks like a really clean option, but I haven't seen this dial type. Description suggests I need it to be serviced properly:
https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/799252191/soviet-watch-kirovskie-nkm-2z-moskva?ref=user_profile

This is undated:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WWII-1Gc...Kirovskie-WWII-Soviet-watch-Military-COMMANDER-RKKA-Watch-USSR-VTG/323908883487

Apparently postwar but looks in good condition:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/323957985708

Also apparently postwar but good condition:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/392772901448

Different factory:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/324126715423
 
#17 · (Edited)
1 would pass on the 1st. Horrible hands relume. Dial was restored and relumed earlier before. This is an early pocket watch case with replaced movement. Too much changes.

2nd is not bad. A bit pricy. For this money I would want all correct parts. Lets see what other folks say. Looks good to me. It is for sure radioactive. If you get it open with extreme care.

3: strange dial. Agree. Most restored at some point in the past. Partially polished case. Over not bad but I would pass.

4: I do not trust this seller. Lots of junk for sale. I hot their straps for Kirovka. Super hard to use. This leather is not bendable. Looks like a washed dial (radioactive lume was removed). Not cheap. I would pass

5: wrong crown. Wrong movement (or dial/hands). Same as above

6: same as above

7: 2nd Moscow factory. Not bad. Hard to see the stamps on the movement. Looks like the 1 wheel is replaced but not big of a deal. Conversation from a pocket watch

1 liked number 2 and 7.
 
#19 ·
Sorry for not having replied earlier and for being extremely short now... but I'll surely keep an eye on this great thread :-!

About #7: the movement has been tampered with , it shows so-called "plain" wheels while 2WF used those we refer to as "excavated" ones; but this is really of lesser importance.
What really matters IMHO is 1) the case is a 1SWF model, and worse than that 2) it's a perfect example of what I called "pocket-to-wrist conversion" in a previous post: notice the position of the 12 in relation to the lugs, and then imagine wearing it.
If you are going to reenact a battlefield scene in the hardest war years maybe it could be acceptable ("anything goes rule", so to speak); otherwise I hardly believe a Politruk would have been assigned such a model.
 
#20 · (Edited)
Thanks, Straight_time.

Looks like I’ve got no super good options so far, then! I think I’m going to wait and see if any other good ones appear on the market. I don’t rule out number 7, though. I don’t mind the 12 position and lug problem that much.

You make a good point about watch assignment, and that chimes with the photographic record. I’ve compiled around 80 period photos (mostly showing ‘trophy’ ones at the end of the war) of personal timekeepers in the RKKA and most of the non-‘trophy’ ones show a K-43 (as far as I can tell). I don’t suppose you know if it might be possible, however, that a privately owned watch was brought to the RKKA by the individual? EG a family heirloom, something they spent their wages on, etc. For higher ranks, like Battalion Commissar (equivalent to Major) and above, that might be more accurate...

At least for now I’ve got my really nice Kirovskie pocket watch (which still needs the bloody sleeve adjusting :( ). The leather strap keeps it protected fairly well (save for the glass, I guess) and although it looks huge on my quite thin wrist, I really like it.
 
#23 · (Edited)
Probably the most common watch worn by ordinary solders in the Great Patriotic War (as I'm sure re-enactors will call it) were ones 're-patriated'. Watches made in the USSR were in the main destined for military officers and critical workers. Many pictures taken were with a watch lent by the photographer - a watch was a high status object. The officer top left has a tank style watch and if home produced could either be a ZIF/Zvezda or a Type-17.
Also take into account Lend Lease watches, especially from the USA.
 
#25 ·
I’m not at all in a rush. There are no events for the foreseeable future!
I can definitely wait for a good K-43, especially seeing as though I should be able to use my pocket watch (once I get the bloody sleeve adjusted) for the time being.
I’ve also got a pretty good budget.
 
#29 ·
Don't forget, when Stalin finally woke up from the three days disbelief ...... would dare attack, it was common order that items like watches were stripped from German soldiers dead or alive.

The lowly cannon fodder of course would have no need of a watch as their movements occurred from the platoon or squad leaders who might have had one watch between say a few platoons, tanks/planes/ships all had chronometer's fitted as standard and an officer would have had a watch as a formality as would no doubt higher ranking NCO's. Artillerymen, the gun captain would have had likely a pendant watch or a watch that could do double duty on wrist and be hung as a proper watch is pretty essential to a gunner (I started my career in the artillery and since watches came about it seemed gun captains were issued with time keeping means, in early times it was done with graduated candles because a precise bombardment can be devastating, 2 mins before or after the balloon goes up and you are rinsing your own troops).

So I would say after the great push against the German's, a lot of German pieces would end up doing service in Russian hands. Similarly I would say through lend-lease and other WW2 aid, a lot of American and British pieces ended up in Russia as well via the convoys.

Airmen and sailors both would have had to have very accurate watches due to the critical need for navigation, a few minutes out could put you 20 miles away from where you really were.