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Is there a certain point for a watch to be considered HAQ? I was thinking on this because I have a Citizen Eco-Drive Skyhawk A-T with a U600 movement that keeps time consistently well within 0.5 SPY. That is without radio reception, since in my country there's no available transmitter. Does this qualify as HAQ? Thanks!
 

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That's a requirement that COSC imposes. It's *probably* essential because temperature variance will cause notable variance.

COSC quartz chronometer is basically 2 seconds a month...25 SPY. With TC built in.

We prefer tighter. We prefer 10 SPY, as a factory spec. Your Skyhawk won't have the TC, as it's anticipated to use the RF. But sometimes you get lucky.

Also: no, there's no station in Peru, but...there IS one in Argentina, broadcasting at the same frequency as WWV. IF they use the same time code? Your watch may be picking it up.
 
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Is there a certain point for a watch to be considered HAQ? I was thinking on this because I have a Citizen Eco-Drive Skyhawk A-T with a U600 movement that keeps time consistently well within 0.5 SPY. That is without radio reception, since in my country there's no available transmitter. Does this qualify as HAQ? Thanks!
A watch is considered HAQ (actually "HPQ = high-precision quartz" would be a better name) if the applied technologies (MHz-range oscillator and/or digital temperature compensation circuit) permit it. That should be the proper definition here in this forum and elsewhere as well!
Tell me about the applied technologies and I would know if the watch is HAQ! No other info is needed!
HAQ has nothing to do with actual performance or factory specifications! Why? Because actual performance could be misleading as there are sweet spots/conditions even for non-HAQ watches when they can perform like HAQ watches and HAQ watches could be out of proper calibration-range (even out of the factory!) resulting non-HAQ level performance.
A non-HAQ watch can show the accurate time today and it might be one second slow 48 hours later and 3 seconds slow another 48 hours later. That watch was accurate today but far from precise in its running.
A HAQ that was reset yesterday can be 5 seconds fast today and gain an extra 10 seconds 48 hours later and gain an extra 10 seconds another 48 hours later and still would be considered very precise in its running but not accurate regarding to the actual time of the day.
Factory specifications are carefully worded by the marketing departments and are not set by universal standards unless they simply refer to COSC.
In this forum we admire high-precision (thanks to the applied technologies) and when this is matched with proper calibration then we are very happy...;-)
 
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Tell me about the applied technologies and I would know if the watch is HAQ! No other info is needed!
HAQ has nothing to do with actual performance or factory specifications! s)
I disagree, this statement is a contradiction to the scientific method.
Better than 10 spy is very demanding, to meet it requires both suitable 'applied technologies' and skilled implementation of those technologies.
All of the correct technologies applied in a poor way can lead to an inaccurate watch !

From an engineering point of view I would look for something like this :-
- Better than 15 spy
- over the temperature range of 10C to 30C
- Performance maintained over 24 month period without re-calibration of rate ( ageing )
- Accuracy without any external 'help' (ie radio or GPS)
I do not believe that a 32Khz 'tuning fork' watch without temperature compensation can meet this spec.
If one does it is interesting & deserves to be called HAQ .

From a warranty point of view I would like to see something like this
- During warranty period watch is within +/- 15s of correct time without adjustment for 1 year after set to the correct time
- No get-out clauses.
 

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I disagree, this statement is a contradiction to the scientific method.
Better than 10 spy is very demanding, to meet it requires both suitable 'applied technologies' and skilled implementation of those technologies.
All of the correct technologies applied in a poor way can lead to an inaccurate watch !...
It is called proper calibration and I have covered it!

...From a warranty point of view I would like to see something like this
- During warranty period watch is within +/- 15s of correct time without adjustment for 1 year after set to the correct time
- No get-out clauses.
The subject is not your wish-list but real life! "No get-out clauses"... Time to wake up!
 
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...MHz-range oscillator and/or digital temperature compensation circuit...
Let me just clarify: I've just added the term digital to temperature compensation and edited accordingly my earlier post. Why? Because in the late 1970s there were analog temperature compensation methods like the famous one from Rolex in the OysterQuartz. That analog temperature compensation method never met the level/performance of later introduced digital temperature compensation methods. Strictly speaking, I would not consider the OysterQuartz HAQ these days. So under the term temperature compensation I really mean digital temperature compensation.
 

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A watch is considered HAQ (actually "HPQ = high-precision quartz" would be a better name)
accuracy is a measure of how close a measurement is to a known standard, precision is a measure of how consistent those measurements are. I had a Sub years ago that ran +6spy, day-after-day, so it was very precise, but not very accurate. So technically, it could probably have been classified as HPM (high precision mechanical) if such a term actually existed.

In the context of HAQ watches, given the narrow accuracy spec of ~10spy you're really going to have to be both accurate and precise anyway, so its kind of a moot point which term is used.
 

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...In the context of HAQ watches, given the narrow accuracy spec of ~10spy you're really going to have to be both accurate and precise anyway, so its kind of a moot point which term is used.
What is the "narrow accuracy spec of ~10spy"?! A promise from the marketing department with plenty of get-out clauses! Would you buy one without being aware of the applied technologies?
 
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accuracy is a measure of how close a measurement is to a known standard, precision is a measure of how consistent those measurements are. I had a Sub years ago that ran +6spy, day-after-day, so it was very precise, but not very accurate. So technically, it could probably have been classified as HPM (high precision mechanical) if such a term actually existed...
Let's stay with quartz! The lack of high-accuracy can be easily cured (if high-precision is already achieved) by proper calibration (if a calibration terminal is available). The lack of high-precision however cannot be cured. Precision is a engineering achievement. Accuracy is purely quality control. I could never achieve precision if it would not be granted (luckily it is) with my old Longines VHP watch, however I can easily achieve accuracy with that watch even in case of low level quality control in the factory as I can access the available digital calibration terminals and can make adjustments in extremely small steps to fine-tune the accuracy of the watch. We are paying big money for high-precision and expect same high level quality control for high-accuracy. Unfortunately, our expectation of quality control is not always matched by the dedication of the manufacturers...
 

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What is the "narrow accuracy spec of ~10spy"?! A promise from the marketing department with plenty of get-out clauses! Would you buy one without being aware of the applied technologies?
yes, I bought one. It appears to be on track for about 5-6spy accuracy, but whether it actually delivers <10spy, I'm not obsessive over that. As I mentioned to the other guy a couple weeks ago who kept his in the box for 6 months or so and never wore it, its not a lab reference experiment, its a wristwatch. If mine is within a second or so a month, I'm good, and I'm not going to send the stupid thing in to the factory if its off by a couple seconds a year over some marketing claim. I realize people are going to be obsessive over accuracy in this forum, but maybe I have reasonable expectations as to what I'm going to get for $700.
 

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I'm not going to send the stupid thing in to the factory if its off by a couple seconds a year over some marketing claim. I realize people are going to be obsessive over accuracy in this forum, but maybe I have reasonable expectations as to what I'm going to get for $700.
$700 is a good sum of money.
$3000 is even better.

Considering that HAQ are not feature-packed items, SPY is *literally why* people get HAQ. To have SPY wrong means the only reason to spend 3K was fraudulent claims.

My 5 SPY Citizen HAQ is running with a beautiful straight line, with a tangent of +14.8 SPY at room temp. For the past three months.

Whereas the promise is 5 SPY between 5oC and 40 oC.
 

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$700 is a good sum of money.
$3000 is even better.

Considering that HAQ are not feature-packed items, SPY is *literally why* people get HAQ. To have SPY wrong means the only reason to spend 3K was fraudulent claims.

My 5 SPY Citizen HAQ is running with a beautiful straight line, with a tangent of +14.8 SPY at room temp. For the past three months.

Whereas the promise is 5 SPY between 5oC and 40 oC.
I wouldn't be happy with 15 SPY performance for a watch claiming 5 SPY either, and especially at the price you paid, so no argument there. I assume your Citizen is the Chronomaster, which is a beautiful watch even if it didn't achieve HAQ accuracy, but I get that you feel like you didn't get the full value you paid for. Are you planning on sending it back?

On the other hand, I bought my Longines VHP because I liked the unique timing mechanism it employs to switch time zones, it was a little different from other quartz watches. The sleep mode is mostly a gimmick, but unique. The fact that its more accurate than most is a bonus, but not the main reason for me buying it, and honestly I don't even remember if its 5 SPY or 10 SPY rated because those 5 seconds don't matter enough to me. So I'm an exception to your claim that SPY is literally why people buy HAQ. I think its also possible to pay well over $1k for Swiss made quartz watches with a Ronda quartz movement inside that's not really guaranteed to be any better than something like 15 seconds/month. That's why I said for $700 I'm not expecting the most accurate watch in the world, although it seems to be delivering 5 SPY accuracy for the month I've owned it.
 

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...My 5 SPY Citizen HAQ is running with a beautiful straight line, with a tangent of +14.8 SPY at room temp. For the past three months.

Whereas the promise is 5 SPY between 5oC and 40 oC.
Your post/watch is an excellent example why I wrote earlier about quality control: ...The lack of high-accuracy can be easily cured (if high-precision is already achieved) by proper calibration (if a calibration terminal is available). The lack of high-precision however cannot be cured. Precision is a engineering achievement. Accuracy is purely quality control... We are paying big money for high-precision and expect same high level quality control for high-accuracy. Unfortunately, our expectation of quality control is not always matched by the dedication of the manufacturers...
 

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Your post/watch is an excellent example why I wrote earlier about quality control: ...The lack of high-accuracy can be easily cured (if high-precision is already achieved) by proper calibration (if a calibration terminal is available). The lack of high-precision however cannot be cured. Precision is a engineering achievement. Accuracy is purely quality control... We are paying big money for high-precision and expect same high level quality control for high-accuracy. Unfortunately, our expectation of quality control is not always matched by the dedication of the manufacturers...
Yes. Of note, I see previous posts when owners sent their HAQ to Citizen due to SPY out of specks.

I recall Citizen was unable to change accuracy. After waiting for months users received their watches with the same SPY.
 

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Yes. Of note, I see previous posts when owners sent their HAQ to Citizen due to SPY out of specks.

I recall Citizen was unable to change accuracy. After waiting for months users received their watches with the same SPY.
That did not happen to me. Citizen did change the accuracy, but with adjustments to my movement, or a new one,I don't know.
 

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That did not happen to me. Citizen did change the accuracy, but with adjustments to my movement, or a new one,I don't know.
Ron, most probably by replacing the electronic module of the movement with a new one.
 

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@Chasy, ppaulusz

I noticed in the Citizen user manual, and on some of the websites selling that model, the accuracy of 5 SPY is clearly qualified with a 5-40C temp range (that you guys have already mentioned) plus a 12 hr/day on the wrist requirement (which I don't think you've mentioned). Otherwise, the accuracy could be as far off as +/-2 sec/month. I gotta be honest, seeing a loophole that big in the spec would cause me to have little to no confidence in the 5 SPY claim prior to making a purchase, so has that caveat always been part of the accuracy specification?? I suspect this is what ppaulusz has been referring to with his comments about Citizen trying to wiggle out of the 5 SPY guarantee.

The way I read it is if you wear it 12 hrs/day and then store it at 5-40C for the other 12 hrs, you should expect 5 SPY accuracy. If you just store it for 24 hrs/day at 5-40C, the 2 SPM number would apply. Given that TC is a fundamental concept of HAQ, you'd think that just operating within the temp range alone would be sufficient to achieve 5 SPY, so the dual-accuracy spec raises a huge red flag in my head. Sounds like their TC methodology leaves something to be desired, and works much better when the watch is at or near body temperature.

If they didn't disclose that requirement before you purchased it, and now they've added it later on, then you have a valid claim that they're trying to wiggle out of a specified accuracy claim. If that was stated all along, then it would appear that if you're not actually wearing it 12 hrs/day then its within spec at 15 SPY. Not saying I like their method, but its clear that they're not hiding anything regarding their accuracy claims as of what I read today.
 

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@Chasy, ppaulusz
5-40C temp range (that you guys have already mentioned) plus a 12 hr/day on the wrist requirement.

Am I the only one to find this part of Citizen's manual contradictory?

To the point that one claim of these two must be false.
 
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