It is so annoying. I had bought from international seller just once and I did some research so I told him to mark it as a gift so I did get away with extra fees. But obviously that’s an individual, you can’t ask a business to do that.


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What do you usually do? Factor in the Duties amount into your watch budget?

Yes. Though as you mentioned, US duties are relatively low.

 

Always. In the UK it's 20% + £8 from outside the EU. Who knows what it will be inside after brexit. Perhaps the same.

With cheaper watches it's fine to ask someone to mark it down, but that will obviously affect the insurance on the parcel. Unless you get an absolute bargain it wouldn't be worth importing.

Luckily (pre brexit anyway) there's a good supply of watches inside the EU to pick from.

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No one is going to like paying taxes.... but with more and more international flow of goods, it certainly isn’t going away.

What gets my goat is the exorbitant fees courier companies in Canada charge to bring something across the border. I will always go with US Postal Service as this doesn’t happen with them transferring the product to Canada Post for delivery.

Often the fee is worth more than the item itself and is simply greediness on the courier’s part.

 

Customs duties, whether or on watches or anything else, are just as valid as any other type of tax. The fact that various other taxes were already paid or will be paid in the making/buying/selling/importing of the item is just a reflection of reality -- of what it means to live in societies and economies that are both local and global.

I always pay Customs duties, but I definitely want to make sure I'm paying the fair amount and am not overpaying. Specifically, when importing a watch into the US, Customs duties (from Chapter 91 of the Harmonized Tariff Schedule) are based upon (a) the type of watch (automatic, handwind, etc.) and (b) the value of each individual component (case, movement depending upon number of jewels, strap/bracelet, and battery). Very different formulas are used to calculate duties for each component, and movements are often taxed a very low, flat rate while the cases and bracelets are taxed at a higher rate that's based upon a percentage of their value.

Let's take a $4000 vintage 14K gold Omega with 10 jewels on a generic leather strap with a relatively rare, well-finished mechanical movement. On such a watch, the overwhelming majority of the value is in the movement -- not the case -- and it's okay to reflect that in the Customs paperwork and in the duties that you pay. Here's an example of what a shipper might put on the Customs paperwork for such a watch:

9101.29.5010 (watch, precious metal, non-automatic winding, 10 jewels - movement) - $3790
9101.29.5020 (watch, precious metal, non-automatic winding, 10 jewels - case) - $200
9101.29.5030 (watch, precious metal, non-automatic winding, 10 jewels - leather strap) - $10
TOTAL DECLARED VALUE - $4000 USD

If you look at duties for 9101.29.50 in the Harmonized Tariff Code, you'll see that duties are 90 cents on the movement + 4.4% on the case and strap/bracelet, so our total Customs duties in this example are $10.14. But if the shipper doesn't provide the breakdown on the Customs paperwork, then the Customs people may use 4.4% of the total declared value ($4000), leading to duties of $176.00. That's a lot more than the (more accurate) $10.14 value!

 

Customs duties are levied for one of two purposes; to protect local manufacturing, or to gouge consumers when no local manufacturing exists. It serves no other function.

 

An import is an import, be it new or used. Duty is on the import, just as sales tax is on the transaction, not the item itself.

 

a famous man once said that not paying taxes is smart.

 

A not so famous person once said, what goes around comes around (that and, Karma's a beyotch)

 

Whether I think it's right or not is not really important. It's the law.

Encouraging or discussing illegal activities doesn't seem sensible.

 

Agree. Not suitable discussion for this venue or its liability.

 

I do not think a used item sold from an individual should ever have sales tax involved. It should have been taxed when bought as new and not again. If sold back to a business, when the business sales a second hand item,tax would then apply again as it is a function of the business and I have no problem with that.

This is my opinion and not a suggestion to avoid taxes when due.

 

In the USA, each state has separate rules on sales tax and the types of transactions subject to it (and whether it is levied on goods, services, shipping costs, etc.). I think it is fair to say that for most states with sales tax, the tax is also applied to used goods. That is why we have to pay sales tax on used goods purchased from eBay.

State sales taxes are rarely collected by sellers outside of the USA. One big exception is AliExpress which started collecting sales taxes following a relatively recent US Supreme Court decision involving collection of sales taxes for interstate online and catalog sales. Prior to the recent ruling, the court held that a business had to have a physical presence in the taxing jurisdiction before it could be required to collect taxes for that jurisdiction. (Companies could voluntarily collect taxes, but they could not be compelled to do so.) The logic was that it was too onerous to require businesses to know all of the sales tax rules for every taxing jurisdiction in the country. With the new ruling, that apparently is no longer true, and every seller must follow the taxing rules applicable in whatever locales it’s customers live.

AliExpress does have a physical presence in the USA, and so it must follow those rules.


Aside from that, the federal rule for customs is pretty straightforward (for watches). If it is valued at less than $800, there is no duty. If it is $800 or more, the duty is equal to 8 percent of the watches value (not just the value above $800).

Are any of these taxes “right” or “just”? Taxes always seem like a good idea when someone else is paying them. I don’t particularly want to pay more taxes, but those are the laws and if want to buy a watch, well, I need to be ready to pay the taxes.


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I think taxing used items is stupid but the law is the law and you have to abide by it.

 

Taxes suck. No one likes paying them, even if it's for something you're passionate about. And it's a pain in the butt across international lines. That said, I do seem to recall this forum is really strict about ways to skirt the law, including customs. I'd be careful in here. Unless things have changed since we've switched to this new forum.

 

I don't see anything wrong with paying customs on a pre-owned watch. Bottom line is you're importing something that was purchased. You pay taxes on a previously owned home, a previously owned automobile, etc. Taxes are a necessary evil.

 

The calculation is usually based on what the seller wrote in the declaration form.

 

When it's just about money, reason is thrown out the window. It doesn't need to make sense.

Where I live there's a tax on soda, even diet soda. All booze is run by the state and they get 30% right off the top.

It doesn't have to make sense.

 

This thought came from a response in another thread. Given the wide spread of countries I have recognised from the forum members here, it would be interesting to see how this feeling is.
Countries have their own rules (not strictly followed) for Customs Duty. I have also seen this varies depending on the mode of shipping - EMS v/s FedEx / DHL. We can ignore that detail maybe.

But if you are buying a watch that is pre-owned, do you thing it is valid to have it taxed at Customs? The watch already had tax paid in the first sale, the seller will pay tax on the second sale income (maybe), the buyer has already paid income tax on the money which is being used to buy the watch.
Is this why there is rampant declaration of lower value that happens? What do you usually do? Factor in the Duties amount into your watch budget? Or find ways to save on it?

Personally, I prefer shipping to Singapore (where I travel regularly) since they have 7% GST on value over SGD 500 coming in from abroad. This is reasonable. Second option is US where it is almost free.

My feeling on customs duties is that they are defined and enforced by each country. Furthermore because they are legal it is the responsibility of every WUS member to comply with them. If you don't like the customs duty of your country you can: 1. Work to have them changed. 2. Move to another lower.tax country. But that is it.

 

I see it as something completely different from normal taxes. I pay a certain tax rate because I live in an area with great infrastructure etc etc, and I'm happy to pay it if it continues to support all those services.

Customs tax in itself, however, is a relict from feudal times when people had to pay the lord to pass through their property. Taxes on production? Sure. On income? Naturally. But on something that is already used, on which taxes have already been levied - in some cases, multiple times... it is nothing more than an unjustified source of income for the state, and that in some states it might be an important source of income simply shows once again that the system is outdated.

 

I don't mind customs. The duties levied pays for the customs agents to process the imported goods. Like it or not they provide a great deal of protection for domestic manufacturing and protect our country from imports that could harm our people (toxic goods) or environment (invasive plants/animals).

 

It sucks to pay taxes or customs, but it is part of life. Manufacturer's have to comply with local government requirements, so their cost/sales models vary from one country to another. I guess imposing customs on the goods being brought in kind of makes up for that. Funny thing is, while we have not bought really expensive stuff while abroad, when we have bought and claimed the stuff that have been over the limit (a few hundred dollars perhaps), we have never been charged for it.

 

Hi Everybody, I am Mike Margolis, and I own a USA company that imports and distributes wristwatches, so I guess I know a bit about paying duty.

CFR's numbers are much more accurate than caktaylor's, although I am not a fan of CFR's breakdown. A $4000 gold watch would normally break down at more like $1900 case, $1900 movement and $200 strap. Still, that gold watch would be taxed at $0 for the case, $0 for the movement and 3.1% for the strap, so about $6 before the customs clearing agent's fees.

The other thing to know is that non-precious metal watches are taxed at a MUCH higher rate: case 4.8%, movement flat $1.75 and strap 9.8%. So same watch but in steel and you're in for about $110 before fedex' fees.

In my world, a $20,000 gold watch can cost basically nothing to bring in, and a $20,000 steel watch can be $500 or more.

Perhaps the 8% flat fee caktaylor was referring to was how much he got charged going through an airport, but I have never heard of nor seen 8%.

Please note that if you ask the seller to undervalue the watch, they also have to under-insure it, and you run the risk of loss. You can't declare a box has a value of $1000 and at the same time insure it for $10,000. Uncle Sam is not that stupid. And you'll find customs agents have google like the rest of us, and you can't tell them your new Richard Mille chronograph was $1000 or $10,000, they know you're lying. And please believe me, lying to a customs agent is never a good idea. You get fined big time, and lose PreCheck and Global Entry forever.

Nevermind a crocodile strap with a CITES. Fedex charges me $201 fee to clear a shipment with a crocodile strap, same fee whether it's one strap or 50, plus the duty on the value of the straps, which can be 11.2%

Anyway, happy to answer specific questions if anyone has them.

Not going to get into whether a used watch should be subject to taxes. A used house is, a used car is, a second hand watch from a jewelry store is taxable too.

 

Hi Everybody, I am Mike Margolis, and I own a USA company that imports and distributes wristwatches, so I guess I know a bit about paying duty.

CFR's numbers are much more accurate than caktaylor's, although I am not a fan of CFR's breakdown. A $4000 gold watch would normally break down at more like $1900 case, $1900 movement and $200 strap. Still, that gold watch would be taxed at $0 for the case, $0 for the movement and 3.1% for the strap, so about $6 before the customs clearing agent's fees.

The other thing to know is that non-precious metal watches are taxed at a MUCH higher rate: case 4.8%, movement flat $1.75 and strap 9.8%. So same watch but in steel and you're in for about $110 before fedex' fees.

In my world, a $20,000 gold watch can cost basically nothing to bring in, and a $20,000 steel watch can be $500 or more.

Perhaps the 8% flat fee caktaylor was referring to was how much he got charged going through an airport, but I have never heard of nor seen 8%.

Please note that if you ask the seller to undervalue the watch, they also have to under-insure it, and you run the risk of loss. You can't declare a box has a value of $1000 and at the same time insure it for $10,000. Uncle Sam is not that stupid. And you'll find customs agents have google like the rest of us, and you can't tell them your new Richard Mille chronograph was $1000 or $10,000, they know you're lying. And please believe me, lying to a customs agent is never a good idea. You get fined big time, and lose PreCheck and Global Entry forever.

Nevermind a crocodile strap with a CITES. Fedex charges me $201 fee to clear a shipment with a crocodile strap, same fee whether it's one strap or 50, plus the duty on the value of the straps, which can be 11.2%

Anyway, happy to answer specific questions if anyone has them.

Not going to get into whether a used watch should be subject to taxes. A used house is, a used car is, a second hand watch from a jewelry store is taxable too.

Mike!! Great to see a familiar "face" on this forum. I think we last crossed paths in person at W&W in Miami 1.5 years ago. Very sorry that didn't happen again this year.

You have much more experience with this than I do, so I'm curious about the $4000 vintage gold watch example. How would you go about valuing the case? You had it as $1900 and I had it as $200 (which I agree may be low based upon today's gold prices). If there were no obvious market for that particular vintage gold cases (e.g., on eBay), then I'd base the value on the price of the gold in the case and then add a small (arbitrary) premium for manufacturing.

 

Often you do get charged for what you should not. You can as individual apply for refund. It's bothersome.

 

There should be no tax locally or import duties on used goods where taxes have already been paid.

 

Too many good replies to quote, so thank you all. I learned some new things, for sure.
There is no intent to suggest avoiding taxes (or death!!). I was just curious to see how people felt about it and how you budget for that money. I always see it as a 15-30% range of Customs Duty (which is common) on a USD 3000 watch is as good as a couple of affordable watches that I am paying as Duty.

 

Whatever tax/custom you pay, you are kind of being double-taxed. You buy your watch with the money left after you pay taxes, taking more than 10% is like stealing from you.

 

How (or why) should one "take a stand" on something for which there is no recourse, or chance of changing? It is what it is. Using your argument, if you bought a used car from the local used car salesman, you shouldn't have to pay taxes because taxes were already paid when the car was new, or, a "used" house, or just about anything else? Commerce is simply the exchanging of some item of value for an appropriate amount of cash, credit or something of equal value--a transaction is a transaction, and of course, should be taxed, and if purchased from abroad, should be taxed incoming.