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When did copies become homages?

18740 Views 537 Replies 144 Participants Last post by  Fahoo Forays
When did copies become homages? I'm curious, how this came about? To me a homage is a watch that makes reference to another iconic watch, inspiration or repurposing a desirable feature or design. For example a watch with Oyster case and sterile dial with sword hands but with Fifty Fathom like bezel, to me that would be a homage to Fifty Fathom and possibly vintage military dive watches.

But I'm curious how the WUS or watch community has come to accept copies like Steinhart, Invicta Pro Diver, or Tissell Explorer as being homages, when in fact they are copies. Homage would be pay respecting to the original. This is just ripping off the original design.

I understand some people don't like homages of any kind. I'm OK with a watch that combines features from others, and apply some flair of their own. But I see so many straight copies that are called homages and I don't understand it, since they are clearly not homages, they are copies.

And some people also seem to not able to understand a copy and replica are no the same thing. I"m not saying Steinhart or Davaso make Rolex replicas, but they certainly are making Rolex copies.

To me calling these watches homages is an insult to other watches that are actually homages, as it puts a watch with interesting character of their own in the same basket with these lame copies.
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Tobacco pipe Font Gas Metal Wood

"This is not a pipe".
...It's just a picture of one.

Nobody cares except for 13 people on wus who really, really cares.
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But why not? If people here really like talking about watches, shouldn't the watch hobbyists stop calling copies homages and make a distinction? If there was a thread discussing Submariner homages, I don't think there should be a singe picture of a copy, it should be homages...

I understand hey, I love the "whatever watch," it's beyond my budget, I'd like to get a homage. But I'm sure person would be told hey look at list of copies.
-- Honestly I think it's impossible for smaller brands to make a watch that isn't homage to another watch at this point, but it is certainly possible to not make copies.
Very few makers of what's called homages here makes 1:1 copies of anything. Not even Steinhart. Possibly Ginault.

But Steinhart never did. The cases aren't the same, the proportions aren't the same, the dial marker's aren't the same and the handsets aren't the same.

Sure, they look to be the same, but they're not. Put enough similar element's together and they look to be a copy, but that doesn't change the fact that Steinhart never released a watch that was a clone of any model that Rolex (or Tudor) ever made.

Those who are saying something different didn't really look that closely. Blurred vision from the anger, i presume.
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I'd be interested to know how many non-hoarders out there have actually kept one of their knock-off/replica/copy/homage watches for more than 1-2 years.
I did. I've had two of them for 3 years.
Not planning on selling or giving away either.
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For me, they are straight copies. But they still have a right to exist. You shouldn't have to spend a fortune to enjoy this design.

Those watches do not look the same at all.
Different everything. The fact that you think the Steinhart looks like a 1:1 copy of the Rolex tells me that you don't really look that hard.
Look at the lugs, look at the bezel, look at everything and tell me it's a copy. Not even the colors match.

I'd say it's a homage in the words correct meaning. If Rolex feels honored by it makes no difference.
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Yes, the watches do not look exactly the same. But in my eyes, they are far too close to the original to be considered a homage. Look at the dial, the exact same hands, the indices, the date magnifier or the Oyster bracelet. A clear imitation.
No. The hands are not the same. The Steinhart hours hand has a taper where the Rolex is straight. Neither are the indicis the same. Look at the battons, and both have a jubilee style bracelet, not an oyster, but their not the same.
Look at the crown guards and tell me they're the same.
They both have black dials and a magnifier, I'll give you that.

But you don't look closely enough.
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I also agree they are not exactly the same otherwise it would be a 'copy'.

But would you agree or disagree with the following statement: "The Steinhart is not based on an original Steinhart design"?
Sure. They make homages of older Rolex and Tudor models.

The people who buy it don't say to themselves, look what a cool design, I don't know it in this way, I like it, I'll take it. Rather, they buy it because it's very close to the original.
Can't speak to others intentions.

I personally got the Steinflake because i don't do vintage.
Watch Plant Gesture Clock Finger

I can afford any Tudor, but they're currently not making anything that I'd want to wear, so the Steinhart was as close as i could get.

It turned out to be a bit too small for my taste, so i rarely wear it. But i haven't been ashamed of owning it for a second.

But i would probably get a Tudor if they made something i actually like.
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100% this. You see it in every homage threads. The negative attacks come first from the usual homage haters, not the other way around. And it's always the same posters who start the negative attacks. Without fail.
Those are the 13 members i was talking about on page 1.
Without fail, they seek out this topic to let their toxicity flow.
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This thread takes a lot of twists in turns from a veritable case study in logical fallacies to self realization in real-time to legalese. none of that is a bad thing, in my opinion, on a forum. It’s definitely given me a little perspective in weighing my own opinion on the matter.

I’ve certainly bought Homages. My first three adult watches of any significance we’re homages whether I was aware or not. The first watch I ever bought with my own money was a fake PP on Canal st when I was 12, completely unaware of the existence of Patek Philippe. I own two homages now, although they aren’t 1:1 they’re clearly inspired by. And I’ve developed, in my acquiring more watches, away from homages fairly quickly. Mostly because my ideal of amassing a hoard of watches has segued into something else. But, I appreciate where buying “affordable alternatives,” as I view them in my particular use, took me and I don’t regret them.

So my opinion, which you have no reason to care about, has been greatly influenced by this thread and I attribute it to how I relate to another aspect of my personal experience with being a guitar builder who was involved forums heavily:

The great debates of guitar builder forums as well as guitar players forums was the term “hand made,” and what that constituted. There were builders who purchased bodies and necks from distributors that were pre-painted and assembled in house, builders who designed guitars and had the parts built and assembled outsourced, guys that used CNC machines, guys that only used hand tools, guys that made original models, models inspired by vintage models and everything you can imagine. All hanging the Hand Made shingle on their shop.

My opinion on this: Every guitar builder ends at the same point, a guitar. There are some builders who literally start from felling a tree, seasoning the lumber and hand planing the billets. I’ve done it, mostly as a personal exercise. So if you imagine a time-line of a guitar from the moment the builder starts building it to the moment it’s strung up, every guitar from the Chinese Fender factory to the guy boiling linseed over candles to make lacquer started with Forestry and ended with assembly. Where the final assembler starts on that time line varies from builder to builder and a lot of cases guitar to guitar. He may use hand tools originally and CNC later as production, time, space or finance allows or demands.

So what and who does this matter to?

If the time-line of Forestry to Assembly was a line left to right and each builder begins building somewhere along that line I found that most builders agreed that just about everyone to the right of them on that imaginary line we’re assemblers and they and everyone to the left were builders of hand made instruments. And they could rationalize that how it needed to be rationalized, “I use CNC because the demand is too high, but there is no skill in operating a band saw anyway, so I’m just saving time.”
And who am I to argue with them?

So who does this matter to?

It didn’t really matter to me. I made 15-20 guitars a year. The only thing I cared about was selling what I made. Which made me think about who it mattered to. Builders were largely interested in how they were perceived and how it effected market equity compared to their competition. Which made me realize, there is no competition. Me and the 1000 other builders were targeting a fraction of a percent of guitar buyers. If there were 1000 people in the world who would buy my guitar on a Tuesday and they found something else first that 1/1000 of a potential sale lost effected me in no perceivable way.

So the only person that really cared or matter was the end user. And that’s if they even cared if it was hand made at all. Which they probably didn’t.

It occurred to me that the entire reason their was a guitar builders forum was because nobody cared about guitar builders building guitars and all us builders wanted to do was tell people about how we spent huge amounts of our time. Which reminds me a lot of this debate. The problem people have with homages, maybe, is that nobody asks them what kind of watch they have. So what watch they have is a matter other peoples perception. If you’re wearing a Nautilus on the corner of 5th and Main I don’t really care if it’s a AP or from A&P. But it matters to the person who bought it. It places them on an imaginary line where there are folks to the left and folks to the right and the correct view is from where they’re standing. And there’s nothing wrong or weird about that. The end user made that choice for a personal reason.

Set aside, fraud and legal standing and deception, marketing, research, manufacturing and status and assume the person legally obtained what they think they obtained, the end user is the only thing that matters. Patents expire, designers move, laws change. It becomes pointless to debate the finer of point of whether a pad printing or applied markers make a watch a homage or a iteration to everyone except the person wearing, whose personal idea of that may change.

So remember to ask strangers what watch they’re wearing.

If you’ve read this far I made up all of this and don’t believe a word of it.
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Yes people.

Haters gonna hate: I am full of hate.

I hope my upstairs neighbour does not wear a homage. I am not on good terms with him so cannot ask him.

I get more and more the feeling a lot of homage wearers suffer from some kind of inferiority complex. They always feel attacked and not loved.
I think you should give it a rest, dude.
We all know where you stand by now.
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For a luxury good, you don't penny-pinch on the value proposition.
The whole point is for people to see that you spent 50 times more on product X, because you could.
The problem with that statement is that most people think a Rolex is a $2000 watch.
Most people who aren't into watches have no idea what they cost.
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Well, I guess it depends on who you're trying to impress.
Impressing someone that would be impressed by a Seiko 5 is certainly easier for your wallet.
I'm not trying to impress anyone. My game is to push people away. And i don't think a wristwatch makes any difference in any case.
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Body odor can do that.
And an abrasive personality.
I smell of MFK, Serge Lutens, Tom Ford, Hermes and such.
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